A Wild theory of Japanese speaking English

nhk9 · 4 Aug 2006

I have met my share of Japanese students trying to learn English here in Canada, and I think that one of the reasons why they can't seem to speak as quick as they like is because actually English and Japanese are spoken with different parts of the mouth. For some reason, I find that native Japanese speak with the front part of the mouth, while those who speak English AND Japanese pronounce words more from the middle to the back of the mouth. Initially I thought that wasn't the case, but I was more and more convinced after hearing Nisei or Sansei Japanese speak Japanese. These Nisei and Sanseis speak English like natives, but they somehow seem to pronounce Japanese words differently from the Japanese that are from Japan, even if they are really fluent in Japanese. It's fairly easy to tell on radio whether one's a nisei or a native Japanese speaker.

This is just my observation. What do you guys think?

epigene · 4 Aug 2006

I think you're correct, for the most part!

I've seen a program on vocalization of languages and a specialist in the field (forgot the name of the discipline) explained how different parts of the mouth are used for English and Japanese. The comparison also included Chinese, which was found to use both of the mouth parts used in English and Japanese--thus the claim that the Chinese pronounce English better than the Japanese. If I remember correctly, Koreans and Japanese share the same issue in vocalization.

Please don't ask me for details--it's been a couple of years and my memory is fading as I approach old age...

Maybe you can dig up something on the Web? I think the specialist was Japanese. :?

epigene · 5 Aug 2006

I'm back again to post something I found on the Web.

Though I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as what had been described in the TV program I saw, it pretty much describes the pronunciation problems that the Japanese generally have.

Would love to translate it if I had the time...
Please use an online translation system from excite, Google, etc.

yukio_michael · 5 Aug 2006

I think also, the way that English is spoken is very different than the way Japanese is spoken, with less movement of the mouth. Pactice saying a few Japanese phrases without moving your mouth too much--- it's quite easy.

Now say a few English phrases with the same type of facial movements--- it comes out stiff and awkward, if not a little strange sounding. The way English is pronounced seems awkward and exagerated to the Japanese, if you've ever seen young people half-heartedly practicing English, you'll know what I mean.

This may not prove to be difficult to Japanese, but it may present them with some mental barriers on the proper way to speak, and may slow down their pronunciation over all.

RockLee · 5 Aug 2006

And think about the nasal sounds in Japanese !! Also the R and L problems most Japanese seem to suffer off. There are more sounds that you make by moving your mouth than there are in Japanese. Also I noticed most Japanese hiss their words, they use their tongue in a different way? Anybody noticed this too ?

epigene · 5 Aug 2006

An interesting site I suddenly remembered:

Speech Accent Archive

Listen to various non-native speakers read a paragraph in English. There are three or four samples from native Japanese, I think--and one of them "kikokushijo" if I remember correctly.

ricecake · 5 Aug 2006

epigene said:
explained how different parts of the mouth are used for English and Japanese. The comparison also included Chinese,which was found to use both of the mouth parts used in English and Japanese--thus the claim that the Chinese pronounce English better than the Japanese.

If I remember correctly,Koreans and Japanese share the same issue in
vocalization.

This explains what puzzled me and others for a long time as to why native Japanese and Koreans can't seem to speak English as equally well as their excellent command of grammars and sentence structure in writing.

I think Japanese and Korean tongues have same language origin,more or less.

Kyoko_desu · 5 Aug 2006

No wonder the muscles around my mouth get really tired after I read English texts aloud or voice-chat with a mic in English for like more than an hour.:nuts:

nhk9 · 5 Aug 2006

RockLee said:
And think about the nasal sounds in Japanese !! Also the R and L problems most Japanese seem to suffer off. There are more sounds that you make by moving your mouth than there are in Japanese. Also I noticed most Japanese hiss their words, they use their tongue in a different way? Anybody noticed this too ?

I noticed this too, and Koreans similarly have this problem. Notice how the copula "desu" is often pronounced as something like "des", rather than "de-su". They have gotten so accustomed to omitting the u sound to the point that they can't now properly pronounce the u sound in the same way that they pronounce other vowels. Of course, there are other reasons too.

nhk9 · 5 Aug 2006

epigene said:
I'm back again to post something I found on the Web.
Though I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as what had been described in the TV program I saw, it pretty much describes the pronunciation problems that the Japanese generally have.
Would love to translate it if I had the time...
Please use an online translation system from excite, Google, etc.

Thanks for the link epigene san

I think a good example for what I am trying to say can be heard from the following:

http://syndy.jp/podcasting/echat/index.html (and download any of the mp3 podcast there)

It is a site for Japanese listeners trying to learn English. The host is a nisei Japanese. Notice how her Japanese, although fluent for the most part, is much more "harder sounding" than the other female guests. The deeper in the mouth the voice is made, the harder it sounds, so it seems.

Timey · 5 Aug 2006

just my own opinion

one of the reason why it's 'hard' for japanese to learn how to speak the 'real' english is the usage of katakana.
how they convert the english pronunciation and 'break' it into katakana yomikata.
and they can hardly pronounce any words ended with consonants, except the 'n'...it's hard for them to differ any words ending with 'n', 'm', and 'ng'.

eg. how do you expect them to read 'white' when they'd been taught from the start that it's supposed to be pronounced with 'howaito' ? meat - mitto..etc
and if they can hardly pronounce it correctly, it's hard for them in the listening part also. that part alone already enough to create problems for them to learn english. leave alone learning chinese.

of course some of them can do it perfectly, just need more effort.

again, only personal opinions from personal experience --japanese h.

nice gaijin · 6 Aug 2006

Accents occur when people try to use phonemes from their native language to produce the sounds in the language they're learning. I find Japanese especially interesting in this respect, because they have an entire syllabary of graphemes to speak foreign words with Japanese pronunciations. It's possible to completely write in another language using katakana; trying to do so really exposes the limitations of Japanese phonetics.

I talked about this extensively in Kirei_na_me's thread about her husband's new boss.

A Wild theory of Japanese speaking English

nhk9

先輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

yukio_michael

後輩

RockLee

Hullu

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

ricecake

先輩

Kyoko_desu

先輩

nhk9

先輩

nhk9

先輩

Timey

先輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

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