5 Things Nobody Tells You About Living in Japan

alecgraham said:

Someone just won a cigar!

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I take it you know him from the defunct forum. Was he just as much a control freak over there as he is proving to be here?

Mike Cash said:

I take it you know him from the defunct forum. Was he just as much a control freak over there as he is proving to be here?

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I know him. I wouldn't call him a control freak, just outspoken and un-silencable. When confronted with someone giving a really unreasonably negative attitude to him, he would call it out, whereas a lot of others might just walk away (from the forum, that is). When a forum has a slower pace (as has been said to me already here from a few), you'd think the long term members would get to know new members and make them comfortable before laying into insulting or patronising attitudes. But that's just me. I know we can't control how others post.

nahadef said:

I know him. I wouldn't call him a control freak, just outspoken and un-silencable. When confronted with someone giving a really unreasonably negative attitude to him, he would call it out, whereas a lot of others might just walk away (from the forum, that is). When a forum has a slower pace (as has been said to me already here from a few), you'd think the long term members would get to know new members and make them comfortable before laying into insulting or patronising attitudes. But that's just me. I know we can't control how others post.

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I take it you're not familiar with his posting behavior here, then. He walked in the door with his a$$ on his shoulders.

Could you point out to me where I've been insulting or patronizing to him in this thread? I would say that the insults and patronizing have run entirely in the other direction.

Mike Cash said:

I take it you know him from the defunct forum. Was he just as much a control freak over there as he is proving to be here?

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I do. The good part first: we used to do skype interviews on the other forum so that we could hear each other's voices and learn more than we might be willing to type out onscreen. Zorro was one of the people nice enough and brave enough to participate and he came off as a genuinely good guy, levelheaded and sane.

I'll state the bad side as politely as I can. I've given up debating him online, and not because he is too clever. That would be refreshing. No, it's because he takes a tiny bit of information that he found on the Internet five minutes before posting and runs with it as if he is the world's authority on the subject.

He tries to drag you into a very long point-by-point battle, but the points don't make any sense! Part of this is because, in my opinion, he is often contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. (That's not necessarily the case with mideast discussions, where I'm probably the one in the minority). Mention that Mao Zedong starved millions and I swear he'll find an obscure reference to a cabbage festival. It's as if the rest of us, though we have access to the same news sources, have all missed the scoop and it is Zorro who must defend the weak, attack the "real" perpetrator, and show the dim masses the light.

There is a little bit of a control freak flavor in the mix as well. Point out something that he doesn't know, and he writes about how he'll have to look into it, but in a way that leads you to feel you're up for a job interview with him, or you're on trial and he's a judge considering leniency. It's all very tiresome.

I've already said too much. I'll be a good guy and not mention his predilection for underage girls.

It could just be a point of view thing, but your posts to me in this thread were pretty patronising, and your attitude to Zorro was belittling, in my opinion. When the "Are you an English teacher?" thing comes up, well, I've lived in Japan a long enough time to know for some foreigners, that's a kind of insult, since they have low opinions of that whole class of foreigners ("ugh, English teachers!"). Maybe you aren't like that at all and it just came across wrong. When you write something like, "Did it bother you that I correctly guessed you're an English teacher?" it sounds like you definitely wrote it in an insulting, or at least belittling, way.
I'll have to trust you that you in no way were being patronising or insulting.

nahadef said:

It could just be a point of view thing, but your posts to me in this thread were pretty patronising, and your attitude to Zorro was belittling, in my opinion. When the "Are you an English teacher?" thing comes up, well, I've lived in Japan a long enough time to know for some foreigners, that's a kind of insult, since they have low opinions of that whole class of foreigners ("ugh, English teachers!"). Maybe you aren't like that at all and it just came across wrong. When you write something like, "Did it bother you that I correctly guessed you're an English teacher?" it sounds like you definitely wrote it in an insulting, or at least belittling, way.
I'll have to trust you that you in no way were being patronising or insulting.

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His passion about the state of English education in Japan led me to wonder if he is an English teacher. My second question was a straight question. He did seem a bit bothered by it.

I don't understand this "the world VS Japan" mentality. I think it must be related to post war globalization to some degree where basically all northern european and northern american people have adopted similar cultural patterns. Why a lot of western people who live or have lived in Japan seem to deliberately want to promote these stereotypes and turn themselves into charicatures of a modern westerner is beyond me.

I know a swedish person who speaks chinese and also a to a degree japanese and traveled extensively in East Asia. He said "japanese are actually strangely enough in some ways similar to swedes (shy, collectivist, cold on the outside but emotional on the inside, standing in line and respecting rules is sacred, taking off shoes indoor, not appreciating bragging etc) while chinese would be the asian equivalent of italians or maybe french (outgoing, garlic eating, large and public family gatherings at the long table, big gestures, merchant/haggling mentality".

I think there may be similarities and differences between many different cultures, but above all unique traits for each culture, but for some reason this idea about the western stereotype seems to be strong in many nations today as a result of increased globalization. I know several swedish people who live or have lived in Japan and seem to do their best to market themselves as stereotypes which aren't even traditionally typical for their own culture but more a uniform western identity from the 1990's and onwards. They refuse to integrate, they justify not learning proper japanese with "you'll never get accepted anyway so why bother?" etc.

I wonder if these people are maybe the cultural garbage of their own respective nations? The waste of the globalization process and they for some reason end up in Japan (usually after first going there with the intent of staying and then finding a woman for their visa) since Japan represents the exact opposite of themselves, which means it's an ethnic majority culture with its own unique traits and expressions deeply rooted. Therefore, Japan is perfect as an "exotic playground" for them where they can role-play racist stereotypes and in this way get attention and "adventure" they wouldn't get otherwise.

Needless to say, I think that no matter what country you move to it's highly undesirable with ghettoization. The effort of trying to adapt shouldn't really be any different when moving to Japan than when moving elsewhere. Which means, do your best and don't get stuck in some sort of stereotypical cultural comfort zone. This should be universally accepted, no need to make an exception for when moving to Japan. Even if people don't accept you, you still have to do your best to adapt.

You want to talk about "refuse to integrate" you should see the guys on another forum I participate in. (No, I won't say which one it is).

You often hear mention of people who have been here decades and are essentially nonfunctional linguistically and practically entirely illiterate. They exist. Some even seem to take having maintained their ignorance as a matter of pride. They remind me of nothing so much as old movies about white colonialists slumming in some far-flung colony. Any minute I expect to hear a reference to "visiting the native quarter".

Nice people, but blissfully and contentedly ignorant.

Mike Cash said:

You want to talk about "refuse to integrate" you should see the guys on another forum I participate in. (No, I won't say which one it is).

You often hear mention of people who have been here decades and are essentially nonfunctional linguistically and practically entirely illiterate. They exist. Some even seem to take having maintained their ignorance as a matter of pride. They remind me of nothing so much as old movies about white colonialists slumming in some far-flung colony. Any minute I expect to hear a reference to "visiting the native quarter".

Nice people, but blissfully and contentedly ignorant.

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That sounds like what I'm talking about.

Rather than endlessly repeating their own mantra, stubbornly reinforcing their trademark Gaijin identity and constantly pointing out how different Japan is and how you will never get accepted I think those people should instead look at examples of successful integration as in the case of Clifton Karhu. There are probably many more examples of foreigners whose contributions to society and willingness to learn the language gained them a fair amount of acceptance.

As for ethnicity and blood, I dare say it's perfectly normal in most parts of the world to categorize even well integrated immigrants as "someone of foreign origin" and, if you don't know them well, make assumptions about their level of comprehension which could be interpreted as discriminatory.
Recently in Sweden, a nation which keeps on pumping in immigrants from everywhere, the most fiercely debated topic is how people of foreign origin feel discriminated against by the sect known as "ethnic swedes" simply because most people here do not look middle-eastern or asian. Sweden was one of the last places in western Europe where people actually saw a black person in real life for first time. There are still regions where small kids will point and say "foreigner!!" even though the country today officially labels itself "multicultural". This is refered to as racism but is just a natural mentality which will persist as long as there is an ethnic norm. Japan is definitely no exception. It's not strange that a country where most of the population are classified as belonging to the ethnic norm would make immigrants feel like they are being excluded at times. However, this should not be an obstacle to successful integration in Japan any more than elsewhere.

I hate that it is so, but part of my reaction to living in Japan and Japanese people arises from some incidents of discrimination that occurred many years ago when I was a young man. Some things aren't so easily forgotten, even if they should have little significance to my life in 2012.

Mike Cash said:

His passion about the state of English education in Japan led me to wonder if he is an English teacher. My second question was a straight question. He did seem a bit bothered by it.

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What bothered me was (apparently) suggesting my profession has anything to do with my opinion.

I am neither proud nor ashamed to be an English teacher. Its just a job. But my opinions have nothing to do with matters of my race, nationality, profession or anything like that, and I don't appreciate bringing them up as if they are relevant to this conversation, because they aren't.

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RolandtheHeadless said:

I hate that it is so, but part of my reaction to living in Japan and Japanese people arises from some incidents of discrimination that occurred many years ago when I was a young man. Some things aren't so easily forgotten, even if they should have little significance to my life in 2012.

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Reminds me of the "Japanese only" signs. I would think they would be at least in the top ten of things people don't tell you about Japan. Mostly you only see them on sex and hostess clubs, but still. I don't even go to such places, but seeing those signs is still annoying.