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～て行きましょう　・　頭がよくって　・　っつーに　・　こう見えて

raikado

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Hello,

I have these sentences that I am unsure of. Could you look through these and tell me if my understanding is correct?

1) あの二人、もう来ないつもり？不戦勝なんてつまんないのはイヤよ！？
Is this の marking the omission of a noun? 勝ち, for example? (不戦勝なんてつまんない勝ちはイヤよ！？)

2)早速、首輪を外して行きましょー！！
Does ～て行きましょう mean "let's proceed by"? In other words, this doesn't show the direction of the action, right?

3)けいまくんはすごく頭がよくって、有能・・・でも、今のままじゃダメ。
Is there a verb omitted after 頭がよく? 回る, maybe?

4) こういうことだったのか・・・あの時のボクは・・・まったく知らなかった・・・ボクがただ生きていることが、どれだけの意志で支えられていたか・・・
The last sentence is translated as "just how many people were supporting me so I could stay alive". Is this correct? From this I understand that どれだけの意志で doesn't refer to his own 意志 but to other people's.

5) だからなじむなっつーに・・・
What is this っつーに? I think it might be と言ったのに（だからなじむなと言ったのに、お前はまだなじんだ）（Even though I said that that's why you shouldn't try to fit in, you still did it.) .
I'm not sure お前はまだなじんだ is correct there, but I don't really know how "you still fitted in" would translate.

6) 私はこう見えて、なかなかの実力者ですから・・・
I believe this translates as "Even though I look like this, I am quite an influential person, so...". Why is it 見えて and not 見えても? Is this a similar case with ～ていい and ～てもいい, where も is omitted in colloquial speech?

I am asking because at first I translated this sentence as "I look like this, and I am quite an influential person, so...".
 
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1)
Yes, that's a pronoun.

2)
That also can mean 首輪を外して、行く "to detach a collar and then go".

3)
よくって ＝ よくて

4)
The gist of it is correct except where "just" is modifying.

5)
Close, but that's だからなじむなっていうのに. (The meaning is more close to なじむっていうんだよ / なじむなよ.)

6)
The -te form just connects the two clauses and the meaning changes depending on the relation between them, so the -te form itself can be adversative conjunction.
 
2) I don't think it is the case here since they are nowhere near someone with a collar.

5)So is it that っていうの that shows someone's ideas?
Also, do you mean that なじむっていうんだよ = なじむなよ? Aren't those two complete opposites? Shouldn't it be なじむなっていうんだよ?

6) What's the difference between こう見えて and こう見えても? Does 見えても emphasize the "even if" part more?

Everything else is clear. Thank you very much!
 
2)
I said "That also can mean".
The speaker says 首輪を外して行きましょー nevertheless they are nowhere near someone with a collar?

5)
That's the speaker's idea.
Yes, that's a typo of なじむなっていうんだよ. Sorry.

6)
They are the same in that example since the two clauses can't have any other meanings than adversative conjunction.
 
Toritoribe said:
I said "That also can mean".
Click to expand...
I understood what you meant. Sorry that my reply was really ambiguous. Please forget about it.
Toritoribe said:
The speaker says 首輪を外して行きましょー nevertheless they are nowhere near someone with a collar?
Click to expand...
Well, kind of..."nowhere near" is an exaggeration. All the girls with the chokers are inside the school and the speaker is somewhere on the school grounds. The speaker and her friends were thinking how they should proceed to stop the bad guys that have put chokers on some of the girls in that school.

I would like to ask something about も again. In this case なんだか・・・他にももっといそうな感じなのです・・・(Somehow...I feel as though there are a lot more girls that this), does も mean "even"?
この他にも人がもっといる。(Even besides this, there are more people>>>There are even more people than this)
 
That's "too/also". 他にもseems not to be able to mean "even".
 
"too/also" like this? 私の他にもこの人たちの他にも人がもっといる。
 
The meaning is different depending on what この is referring to.

この人たちの他にも人がもっといる。
ここ以外のところにも人がもっといる。（＝ここの他にも）
 
I'm not sure...was what I wrote correct or not?
I am having trouble finding a difference between ほかに and ほかにも. I'll remove もっと for these examples. I hope it isn't a crucial word or something like that.

ここの他にも人がいる。（＝ここ以外のところにも人がいる。）（＝ここに人がいて 他のところにも人がいる）
ここの他に人がいる。I am really unsure of this. Is this equivalent to [ここ以外のところに人がいる]/[ここに人がないけど、他のところに人がいる?] (because I always thought that this one is similar to the first example.)

この人たちの他にも人がいる。
この人たちの他に人がいる。(The only difference that I feel between these two is that the first one has a little more feeling to it. But this would mean that it has the feeling of "even" and you said that is not it. Unless what I wrote before is correct, which kind of makes sense.)

The same for my original sentence.
他にももっといそうな感じなのです
他にもっといそうな感じなのです
 
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raikado said:
I'm not sure...was what I wrote correct or not?
Click to expand...
この can't refer to the speaker themselves in that sentence, so it can't mean 私の他にも. (私たちの他にも is possible, though.)

Because what ここの他に人がいる is meant is unsure in the first place (therefore it sounds awkward).

raikado said:
この人たちの他にも人がいる。
この人たちの他に人がいる。
Click to expand...
These are the same in meaning, but the latter sounds a bit awkward when used at the sentence end. There is no problem as a modifying clause or a quotation (e.g. この人たちの他に人がいるはずはない, この人たちの他に人がいるとは思えない).

raikado said:
他にももっといそうな感じなのです
他にもっといそうな感じなのです
Click to expand...
The latter means that the number of people beside here is larger than the number of people here.
 
OK, Thank you! I think I managed to understand half of the problem.

1) In this も case (他にも）, a construction like A他にもB他にも・・・is impossible? Because I tried searching for something like this and I couldn't find anything relevant.

2)
I think I can make sense of why this is like this if I add ところ.
他のところにももっといそうな感じなのです。
他のところにもっといそうな感じなのです。
These still retain the meanings that you said they have, right?

3)
この人たちの他にも人がいる。
この人たちの他に人がいる。
Click to expand...
But I have no idea how to think of Nの他に. I know you said that in those cases, they are the same in meaning, but is this true no matter the context?

Is there an explanation why the second one sounds awkward, or is it just general preference?

For example:
英語の他に習得すべき第二言語とは一体何だろうか？
英語の他にも習得すべき第二言語とは一体何だろうか？
In this case, doesn't the first one suggest that the speaker already knows english and is looking for another language to learn? While the second one implies that he is asking something like "I should learn english, and what else?"

なぜドイツ人はドイツ語の他に英語を完璧に喋れるんですか？
なぜドイツ人はドイツ語の他にも英語を完璧に喋れるんですか？
But in this case, is there any difference? I added も to the original sentence but everything seems exactly the same. Actually, the second one seems to transmit the idea of the sentence better (The fact that german people can speak german flawlessly and in addition to german, they can also speak english flawlessly.)
 
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1)
Generally, Aの他にも includes B, so Aの他にも、かつBの他にも is semantically odd. Aの他にも、あるいはBの他にも is possible.

2) a)
ほか can mean "other place" even without ところ.

ほか【外／他】
１ その場所以外の所。よそ。他所。「どこか―を探す」「―へ行く」
Click to expand...
外／他（ほか）の意味 - goo国語辞書

b)
Even when 他 doesn't refer to a location, that sentence is valid. For instance;
You are a teacher, and ask your students to raise their hands if they don't understand a question you gave them in a class. Only few students raise their hand, but you suspect there are more students who actually don't understand it other than the ones who do that now. Then you talk to your colleague next to you "（分かっていないものが、手を挙げてる生徒の）他にもっといそうな感じなのです".
In this case, 他 doesn't refer to 他のところ.

3)
I think the awkwardness is from 人がいる.
I don't see the difference between your two examples. They are the same in meaning.
 
Toritoribe said:
他 doesn't refer to 他のところ.
Click to expand...
No, no. I just added 他のところ to make the sentence look more familiar to me. I understand that 他 can refer to absolutely anything.

At this point I am stuck at the difference between Aの他に and A他のにも. Consider my examples :


Aの他に already includes A. What does も add to the sentence? Does it emphasize more that A is included?
 
As I wrote, I don't see any difference.
 
Thank you! I must say that I find this quite strange. What if it were 他には and 他にも. Would there still be no difference?
 
raikado said:
I must say that I find this quite strange.
Click to expand...
I don't think so.
e.g.
こんなにわかりにくいと思わなかった＝こんなにもわかりにくいと思わなかった

raikado said:
What if it were 他には and 他にも. Would there still be no difference?
Click to expand...
Think of examples yourself and give it to us.
Hint: structures that ～の他には sounds natural
 
Toritoribe said:
こんなにわかりにくいと思わなかった＝こんなにもわかりにくいと思わなかった
Click to expand...
Even here...There is no doubt that the meaning is the same, but doesn't も in the second sentence emphasize わかりにくい more?
 
こんなに emphasizes the meaning in the first place. 強調よりも調子を整えるとかの他の要因の方がより大きな役割を担っているように見えますけどね。
 
Ok, I will just take your advice and think of these expressions as being the same.

I actually got curious about the difference between より and よりも after seeing you use it, so I googled it and the difference is almost non-existent in terms of meaning. In the 他にも case, I understood this fact it a bit harder because も means "also" there, unlike in こんなにも or よりも. I expected a much greater difference from that kind of も.

Thank you for helping me, and also for putting up with me!
 
Toritoribe said:
Hint2:

This is not always valid.
Click to expand...

Hmm...I only managed to think up of 3 different ways where it might not be valid. Unfortunately, I don't know if these sentences are natural. I don't think I would have these kind of questions if I knew what sounds natural and what not.

1) Where 他 means 他所.
私の部屋の他に入っていい。(This sounds ambiguous. Maybe it would need some context to determine the meaning accurately. By itself though, I see 2 possible meanings: 私の部屋以外、入っていい。 or 私の部屋以外は他の部屋にも入っていい。）
私の部屋の他にも入っていい。( 私の部屋以外は他の部屋にも入っていい)

2) When used with an intransitive verb that uses に for the object. (And I know that what I said might be completely wrong so I will give some examples)
AがBに触れた。 A touched B.
AがBに決まる。 A will decide B.

この人生には私たちが両親や生まれた場所など決まれない。でもその他にはたくさんの大切なことに決まれる。(Unless forced to use ほか, I would actually use それ以外は instead of その他には. I am trying to say "Except that, we can decide countless of other important things")
If the above sentence is valid, then I think in this case その他にも makes no sense here.

3)When used with a negative.

彼の他に誰もパーティーに行かない。（No one will go to the party except him)
彼の他にも誰もパーティーに行かない。(No one will go to the party, including him)

*4) I also found this sentence 彼のほかに私たち皆が行った。translated as "All of us, except him, went.". Maybe it's 皆 that makes the difference from "including him" to "except him"? (or in other words the scale between what is before ほか and what is after.
 
1)
You are correct. The meaning of that sentence is ambiguous (and doesn't sound natural).

2)
私たちは自分の両親や生まれる場所を自分で決めることはできない。でも人生には自分で決められる大切なことがその他にたくさんある。

This might be confusing, but その他にもたくさんある is also valid here. In this case, 自分の両親や生まれる場所 is interpreted as examples of たくさんある自分で決めることはできない大切なこと. (There are many things you can't decide by yourself, but there also are many things you can decide by yourself.)

3)
This is what I wanted to point out.

彼の他に（は）パーティーに行くものはいない。
他 doesn't include 彼. も can't be used here since the meaning is unclear and therefore sounds unnatural.

彼の他にもパーティーに行くものはいる。
This is valid. も can be omitted in a modifying clause or subordinate clause.
e.g.
彼の他に（も）パーティーに行くものはいるが、多くはない。

4)
This is also ambiguous as same as #1.
 
Thank you! I thing I got everything. I've still got a slight curiosity regarding 2).

2) What if I modify the sentences like this? 私たちは自分の両親と生まれる場所を自分で決めることはできない。
でも人生にはその他に、自由にすべて決められる。
でも人生にはその他にも、自由にすべて決められる。(does も still work?)
 
If you want to use 自由にすべて決められる in the main clause, 他に can't be used in the first place.
でもその他のことは、すべて自由に決められる。

でも人生には自分で決められる大切なことがその他にもたくさんある。 is still valid even when と is used there, since we know things we can't decide by ourselves are not just those two as a common sense.
 
Why? This is quite a longshot but, is it because I am using a potential verb?

But if those two really were the only two things that we couldn't decide, then the sentence would be wrong, right?
 
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