議論を求める

Elizabeth · 23 Apr 2005

The question here is basically whether "giron wo motomeru" is a legitimate Japanese phrase. I was told it was an error and never used, but then have seen it around quite a bit esp in regard to the Chinese request for an apology, these latest demonstrations etc)....:?

NANGI · 23 Apr 2005

Konnichiwa Elizabeth-san!

It is not an error grammatically, but is not common phrase. Japanese people have an allergy to argument(discussion, debate, dispute and etc...). A lot of people regard "Giron" as "Kenka(quarrel)".
And you were told it was an error and never used, I think.

NANGI

Elizabeth · 25 Apr 2005

ありがとう南木さん！詳しいことはまだわからなかったのですけれども。。。

「議論をしたい」とか「議論をすべき」はよく良くない事実」、「最近、特に中日訳」が表に出たときに使われるのでしょうかな？たとえば、それも硬い表現なのでニュースや雑誌とかで「中国側は、歴史問題の解決が、真の謝罪と反省と議論」に基づいた」などという風にです。

多分、聞いた人がそういう言葉を聞くのは初めてだったので、何が私の言いたいのかも全くわかりませんだったのでしょう。確かに文法的に間違いではないんですが、英語でも、場合より違う場の状況は "Requesting a controversy, asking for criticism" と言う文が、理解できにくいですね。

epigene · 25 Apr 2005

Yes, you're right in your observation.

If you hear the expression out of context, it is truly strange. A Google search shows that it is bureacratese, used in title of documents in government administration to express the need for deliberation of the issue in question before arriving at a government decision.

In lay Japanese, 求める would be used with 意見 rather than 議論

pipokun · 25 Apr 2005

対話, or dialog would be better when you use a verb 求める in your sentence.
A dialog should be better than throwing a stone...

Elizabeth · 25 Apr 2005

pipokun said:
対話, or dialog would be better when you use a verb 求める in your sentence.
A dialog should be better than throwing a stone...

Thanks Epigene-san, Pipokun ! Or something like 話し合うを求める which I think is used quite a bit....

this part is a little off the subject but what would be a good description for
a very politically-minded personality that is always seeking out controversial positions or looking for a good fight over any issue ? There must be such people, even in Japan....

pipokun · 25 Apr 2005

Elizabeth said:
Thanks Epigene-san, Pipokun ! Or something like 話し合うを求める which I think is used quite a bit....

this part is a little off the subject but what would be a good description for
a very politically-minded personality that is always seeking out controversial positions or looking for a good fight over any issue ? There must be such people, even in Japan....

Like Bill O'Reilly?

Elizabeth · 27 Apr 2005

pipokun said:
Like Bill O'Reilly?

Or 堀江社長. ライブドア。。。

Anyway, could someone please translate my question into Japanese and give me more of a vocabulary in this important area. So I don't keep saying
よく議論を始める人。。。。

ralian · 27 Apr 2005

Hi, Elizabeth さん、
日本人は普通、「話し合おう」とか、「話し合いたい」「話し合いましょう」"Let's talk" といいますね。
Ｎａｎｇｉさんのおっしゃるように、日本人はあまり議論を好まないので、「議論しよう」とは言わず、もっとやわらかい表現を使うわけです。
「議論」は、普通、「議論する」などという表現で使われますが、「話し合う」よりは硬い表現になります。「議論を求める」だと、なんだかけんか腰みたいなんです。
たとえば、Ａ君とＢ君が意見が合わないので、話し合う事にしたとしましょう。でも、話し合いに、だんだん熱が入り、そのうち、議論になってしまった．．． :sour:
という風に、使う事が出来ます。

Elizabeth · 27 Apr 2005

Thanks ralian-san ! I'll reply in more detail later....for now, though, I understand that 'giron' is definitely more confrontational, I asked out of interest since it is more common in the news, at least on NHK news, than some form of "hanashiau" or "taiwa."
Just this morning was 議論を行なう and 政府と党で議論を続け、in relation to the new postal administration bill. Although of course "giron wo shinakerebanarianai"
or "giron wo shitai" are also possible, most frequently it seems from a general statement of "We need to have a discussion about this" rather than "I want to argue with you in particular."

pipokun · 28 Apr 2005

議論をふっかける、仕掛ける fukkakeru/sikakeru would be your answer for the guy like O'Reilly or Soichiro Tawara, a bit left journalist.

議論を巻き起こす makiokosu is better expression for the guy like Mr. Horie.
eg. 堀江社長は、プロ野球参入問題、ニッポン放送買収など、様々な議論を巻き起こしている。

Elizabeth · 28 Apr 2005

pipokun said:
議論をふっかける、仕掛ける fukkakeru/sikakeru would be your answer for the guy like O'Reilly or Soichiro Tawara, a bit left journalist.

議論を巻き起こす makiokosu is better expression for the guy like Mr. Horie.
eg. 堀江社長は、プロ野球参入問題、ニッポン放送買収など、様々な議論を巻き起こしている。

ありがとう Pipokun ! 巻き起こるは、もう使っていた「引き起こる」に近い感じでしょう。

ニッポン放送の交渉の終わりに、堀江社長は神経衰弱にかかってたみたいですけど。

pipokun · 29 Apr 2005

巻き起こるは、もう使っていた「引き起こる」に近い感じでしょう。

Bingo その通り。正確に言うと、微妙な意味の違いがあると思いますが、意味は似ています。

議論を求める

Elizabeth

先輩

NANGI

先輩

Elizabeth

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epigene

相変わらず不束者です

pipokun

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

pipokun

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

ralian

長靴をはいた猫やねん

Elizabeth

先輩

pipokun

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

pipokun

先輩

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