見ようと / ここが出る / から / だれが考えても

[eeky]

Hi,


1. 喧嘩を見ようと、野次馬が集まった。

Translation given: "A crowd collected to watch the fight."

I can't seem to remember how 見ようと works. Is this a standard form, "volitional + と", meaning "in order to"? Don't we usually use に for that?


2. あしたの試験にはきっとここが出るに違いない。

Does this mean "Tomorrow's test will definitely be held here"? Or "Be sure to turn up here for tomorrow's test?" Or ... ?

I don't understand に ... ここが出る at all. Is ここ referring to a physical location? Is ここ the subject of 出る?


3.

A: 「ええと、加藤さんはどの人かしら。大勢いて分か らないわね。」
B: 「あ、あの眼鏡の人に違いない。グレーのスーツを着ていると言っていたから。」

My translation：

A: "Hmm ... I wonder which one is Mr Kato. I can't tell in this crowd."
B: "He must be that man in the glasses, since (they) said he was wearing a grey suit."

a) Does this make sense? In English, から, which I tried to translate as "since", doesn't seem to follow.

b) Does 大勢いて mean 大勢がいて?


4. だれが考えても、論理的にそうなると思った時には「～ はずだ」を使って客観的に説明。

I gather this is roughly saying that one can use 「～はずだ」 to objectively explain something that one thinks will logically happen.

However, I'm not sure how だれが考えても fits. I wondered at first if it meant that はずだ explains what "everyone" (i.e. people in general) think is logical, but I don't see how that fits with 思った. Maybe it's a set phrase?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Do you mean 喧嘩が見えるように、野次馬が集まった, for instance? よう in ～しようと is the volitional, as you wrote, whereas よう in ～するように expresses "state/appearance".
You can think 見ようと as 見ようとして.

2)
ここ is the subject of 出る, since it's ここが出る. ここ refers to a topic/subject that must appear in tomorrow's exam. That's quite the same usage to ところ or そこ in this thread. As you can see, ここ, そこ and ところ are all "location".

3) a)
Yes, から indicates "cause/reason". A and B heard Mr.kato wears a grey suit, and they have found that the man in the glasses wears a grey suit. This is not mentiond, but we can imagine easily from their conversation, don't we?

b)
It's more likely （人が）大勢/たくさんいる.

4)
だれが考えても modifies そうなる.

 

[eeky]

Thanks Toritoribe.

1)
1)
Do you mean 喧嘩が見えるように、野次馬が集まった, for instance? よう in ～しようと is the volitional, as you wrote, whereas よう in ～するように expresses "state/appearance".

Yeah, thanks, I understand that よう in 見えるように, for example, is different from よう in ～しようと, for example. I'm not sure now what I had in mind with に. Can we just put に after the dictionary form of a verb to create the "in order to" sense?

As you can see, ここ, そこ and ところ are all "location".

But you say that ここ in this case isn't a location but a topic/subject?

Yes, から indicates "cause/reason". A and B heard Mr.kato wears a grey suit, and they have found that the man in the glasses wears a grey suit. This is not mentioned, but we can imagine easily from their conversation, don't we?

Yeah, I know what you mean... it just seemed a bit odd when I wrote it ... knew he was wearing a grey suit, therefore it must be the man in the glasses. As long as that's what the Japanese means, I'm happy.

4)
だれが考えても modifies そうなる.

Sorry, I don't get this yet. I was originally trying to make だれが考えても、論理的にそうなる mean something like "everyone thinks such a thing will logically happen". But then when I added と思った時に, it turned into "when you think that everyone thinks such a thing will logically happen", which seemed too convoluted.

 

[Toritoribe]

Can we just put に after the dictionary form of a verb to create the "in order to" sense?

Probably you mixed "the -masu stem of a verb + に" with "the dictionary form of a verb + ために".

○木の実を食べに、小鳥が庭に来た。
○木の実を食べるために、小鳥が庭に来た。
○木の実を食べようと（して）、小鳥が庭に来た。
×木の実を食べるに、小鳥が庭に来た。

But you say that ここ in this case isn't a location but a topic/subject?

I mean those words that indicate topic/subject or range/scope/coverage of exam are all the ones that indicate location. In fact, the words like あそこ, どこ, この/その/あの/どの辺, この/その/あの/どの辺り, etc are also used for the same purpose.

Sorry, I don't get this yet. I was originally trying to make だれが考えても、論理的にそうなる mean something like "everyone thinks such a thing will logically happen". But then when I added と思った時に, it turned into "when you think that everyone thinks such a thing will logically happen", which seemed too convoluted.

But that literally means so.

 

[eeky]

Thanks very much Toritoribe. I was probably just thinking of "-masu stem + に" (even though it is not very similar to the original usage!) ために I tend to recognise quite reliably.