男が時代の進歩 ... / 主婦でもあり ... / そんな不公平 ...

eeky · 24 Nov 2010

Hi guys,

1. 男が時代の進歩を理解しないのを、そのままにしているからです。

I'm trying to make sense of this as AをBにする ("make A into B", "use A for B", etc.), but although I understand chunks of the sentence individually, I can't figure out the overall meaning. Help!

2. 主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある人の超人ぶりをみるたびに、その力で企業と男にたたかってくれたらと思います。

My translation attempt:

みるたびに = Every time I see

主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある人の超人ぶりを = a "superwoman" who is both a housewife and a career woman,

その力で企業と男にたたかってくれたらと思います = I wish that (she) would use that power to fight men and business.

Is this correct? I'm especially unsure about "... でもあり ... でもある人". Could anyone shed any light on this construction? I'm trying to make "Aでもある人" mean "a person who is (also) A", but will that work with ある?

Also, is it reasonable to translate ～たらと思います as "I wish that ～"?

3. そんな不公平はごめんだというので、三重苦のどれかを、はずしている人もあります。

My translation attempt:

"Such unfairness is unacceptable, so there are people who get rid of some of the three afflictions."

Does this look right? I'm especially unsure about the sense of 三重苦のどれか.

Also, I know という has been discussed a lot elswehere, but I still have difficulties knowing exactly what sense it imparts in a given situation (unless it's obviously a literal quote). What do you think it's adding here?

Toritoribe · 24 Nov 2010

eeky said:
1. 男が時代の進歩を理解しないのを、そのままにしているからです。
I'm trying to make sense of this as AをBにする ("make A into B", "use A for B", etc.), but although I understand chunks of the sentence individually, I can't figure out the overall meaning. Help!

そのままにする is a kind of set phrase, meaning "to leave it be/not to change".

eeky said:
2. 主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある人の超人ぶりをみるたびに、その力で企業と男にたたかってくれたらと思います。
My translation attempt:
みるたびに = Every time I see
主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある人の超人ぶりを = a "superwoman" who is both a housewife and a career woman,
その力で企業と男にたたかってくれたらと思います = I wish that (she) would use that power to fight men and business.
Is this correct? I'm especially unsure about "... でもあり ... でもある人". Could anyone shed any light on this construction? I'm trying to make "Aでもある人" mean "a person who is (also) A", but will that work with ある?

Yes, your interpretation correct. It's the same to 主婦でもキャリアウーマンでもある人.

eeky said:
Also, is it reasonable to translate ～たらと思います as "I wish that ～"?

Yes. くれたらと思います＝くれたら（いいのに）と思います

eeky said:
3. そんな不公平はごめんだというので、三重苦のどれかを、はずしている人もあります。
My translation attempt:
"Such unfairness is unacceptable, so there are people who get rid of some of the three afflictions."
Does this look right? I'm especially unsure about the sense of 三重苦のどれか.

"One of the three afflictions" might be more appropriate.

eeky said:
Also, I know という has been discussed a lot elswehere, but I still have difficulties knowing exactly what sense it imparts in a given situation (unless it's obviously a literal quote). What do you think it's adding here?

という has a nuance of quotation, so it's used here. そんな不公平はごめんなので is basically used for the speaker's/writer's own emotion.

Glenn · 24 Nov 2010

I'm having problems with その力で企業と男にたたかう. I assume eeky's got the meaning right, but why 男に? That's blowing my mind right now.

Toritoribe · 24 Nov 2010

Yeah, I, too, think it's awkward. I would say その力で企業や男とたたかう instead.

eeky · 24 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
そのままにする is a kind of set phrase, meaning "to leave it be/not to change".

Hi Toritoribe. I'm still not very sure how this one fits together. Is the strictly literal meaning of sentence #1 that some unnamed agent, who is the subject of 窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ, has left unchanged the fact that men don't understand the progress made?

Could I just translate the sentence it as "It's because men still don't understand the progress made in this era", where I have put the "to leave it be/not to change" meaning into the word "still"?

Toritoribe said:
Yes, your interpretation correct. It's the same to 主婦でもキャリアウーマンでもある人.

IIf I try a mechanical translation of キャリアウーマンでもある人, I get, if you can follow my mixture of Japanese and English, "人 who キャリアウーマンでもある". The thing that puzzles me is that ある is used to provide a description of a person. Is there a supressed が that でも has supplanted? In an appropriate context, could I say "キャリアウーマンがある" to mean "(she) is a career woman"? I think I may have got into a muddle here.

Glenn · 24 Nov 2010

For そのままにしているからだ I get the sense that the object is unstated, and I have no idea what it's supposed to be.

主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある: 主婦だ。キャリアウーマンでもある。To mark the copula as "also" you have to extract its components (である) and stick the も between them.

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, I, too, think it's awkward. I would say その力で企業や男とたたかう instead.

Well, good. I feel a sense of relief after seeing that!

eeky · 24 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
For そのままにしているからだ I get the sense that the object is unstated, and I have no idea what it's supposed to be.

Did you mean object or subject? Isn't the object "男が時代の進歩を理解しないの", since it's marked with を? (I mean the object of している.)

Glenn said:
主婦でもありキャリアウーマンでもある: 主婦だ。キャリアウーマンでもある。To mark the copula as "also" you have to extract its components (である) and stick the も between them.

Oh, so this でもある is actually the same species as だ or です (give or take the level of formality) plus も, and is not the verb ある?

Glenn · 24 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Did you mean object or subject? Isn't the object "男が時代の進歩を理解しないの", since it's marked with を? (I mean the object of している.)

Good point. So I guess, then, it's (someone) not bothering with men's lack of understanding of the advancement of the times, then? I still don't know what's going on with that sentence, though.

eeky said:
Oh, so this でもある is actually the same species as だ or です (give or take the level of formality) plus も, and is not the verb ある?

Yes. In formal written language だ is usually である. See, for instance, Wikipedia (selected article: 卑弥呼, because I couldn't think of anything else):

既に年長大であったが夫を...
ドイツ語での名詞の表記に似た方法である。
少なくとも現代日本語で解釈するのは学術的に無意味であり...
...一連の記述である。
複数年にわたる記述である可能性が高い...

等々

Ashikaga · 24 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
Good point. So I guess, then, it's (someone) not bothering with men's lack of understanding of the advancement of the times, then? I still don't know what's going on with that sentence, though.

It is difficult to say without reading more of this article, but it is most likely that it is the society at large that is not doing anything with men's lack of understanding of the advancement of the times. And THAT's where women come in! Go sistas, go!

Glenn · 24 Nov 2010

お帰りなさい、足利さん！（っていうか、私も最近あまりここに来ていない・・・）

I see. I suppose that would make the most sense given the context at hand.

eeky · 25 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
YYes. In formal written language だ is usually である.

Thanks Glenn ... Oh, one more thing if I may ... By analogy, could I say, for example,

主婦だ人

to mean (literally) "person who is a housewife"? Or will this pattern only work with である?

undrentide · 25 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Thanks Glenn ... Oh, one more thing if I may ... By analogy, could I say, for example,

主婦だ人

to mean (literally) "person who is a housewife"? Or will this pattern only work with である?

No.
だ is used only at the end of a sentence.
It's possible to say 主婦の人 - though it sounds a bit awkward and this pattern does not always work with any word.

Toritoribe · 25 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
I'm having problems with その力で企業と男にたたかう. I assume eeky's got the meaning right, but why 男に? That's blowing my mind right now.

I suppose the writer might confuse 戦う and 戦いを挑む, since 企業と男に戦いを挑んでくれたら makes perfect sense.

eeky said:
By analogy, could I say, for example, 主婦だ人 to mean (literally) "person who is a housewife"? Or will this pattern only work with である?

The adjectival form(連体形) and the dictionary form(終止形) of verbs are the same in modern Japanese, but the adjectival form of the copula だ/です is な. Futhermore, な can't be used for nouns, so 主婦な is also wrong. We need to use である for these cases.(の sometimes can be used, too, as undrentide-san pointed out.)

この部屋は静かだ。 → 静かなこの部屋
この人は学生だ。 → 学生であるこの人/学生のこの人

Glenn · 25 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
I suppose the writer might confuse 戦う and 戦いを挑む, since 企業と男に戦いを挑んでくれたら makes perfect sense.

Yes, that does make more sense, but it seems to be a strange mistake (?) to make for a native speaker. At least I'm assuming the writer is a native speaker.

eeky · 25 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
At least I'm assuming the writer is a native speaker.

This is from an essay included in a textbook for Japanese learners. The essay is attributed to someone with a Japanese name, so I assume it's written by a native speaker. However, another member here commented a few days ago that some other sentences extracted from the same essay were poor Japanese, so perhaps the text isn't very well written. (If that's the case, though, I'm surprised it was included in the textbook!)

Glenn · 25 Nov 2010

That must have been the one with 同じに. When I saw that I thought it was wrong, but then undrentide and Toritoribe both rolled with it, so I figured it wasn't, but I couldn't remember ever seeing/hearing it before. Then came the comment about poor Japanese, which I assumed was directed at that 同じに.

Yeah... maybe it's a dialect or something. I've heard of auxiliaries (like くれる) being put in different orders in 九州 (I think), so I suppose it could be that. But I have no idea how accurate that idea is.

男が時代の進歩 ... / 主婦でもあり ... / そんな不公平 ...

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Glenn

一切皆苦

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

Ashikaga

もちもちした食感

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

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