江戸で云ゑて抔と云名をいわず人をさし云処へ用

This has been bothering me since I first saw it. If anyone can clear this up, I'd be very grateful!

はじめて見てからずっと気になっていることなんですが、誰か、明かしてくださる方がいれば、誠にありがたいです！よろしくお願いします！

In the sentence from kumo's post a little while ago,
江戸で云ゑて抔と云名をいわず人をさし云処へ用 ,
the verb 云ふ is used. This is a 四段は行 verb. Therefore, one would expect that the conjugation of this verb is as follows:

語幹： い
未然形： －は
連用形： －ひ
終止形： －ふ
連体形： －ふ
已然形： －へ
命令形： －へ

However, the usage in the original sentence, which I assume to be in 已然形, is written 云ゑ instead of 云へ. In other words, it is written in わ行 instead of は行. Why would this be? Does it have something to do with 甲類かな and 乙類かな? This is really killing me!

I think you're bumping up against a problem stemming from prewar kana usage.

The sentence is before Meiji, and 云う was 上一段活用, I suppose.
Forgetting it is the best way unless you're a researcher.

Mike Cash said:

I think you're bumping up against a problem stemming from prewar kana usage.

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Could be, but I have a feeling that there's something else in play.

pipokun said:

The sentence is before Meiji, and 云う was 上一段活用, I suppose.
Forgetting it is the best way unless you're a researcher.

Click to expand...

I know it's from the late Edo period, but I seriously doubt that 云ふ was 上一段活用. Here's why:

1) To the best of my (limited) knowledge, such verbs always end in る in 終止形, but the 終止形 of 云ふ is...well, 云ふ, and therefore ends in ふ.

2) The proper conjugation for a 上一段活用 is as follows (for the verb 居（ゐ）る)

語幹： （ゐ）
未然形： ゐ
連用形： ゐ
終止形： ゐる
連体形： ゐる
已然形： ゐれ
命令形： ゐよ

In other words, the only way this would make sense is if the 語幹 of 云ふ is ゑ and the verb is in either 未然形 (not likely) or 連用形 (quite possible). However, to do this, verbs forms such as 云ふ would become impossible, as that is not part 上一段活用 usage. But いふ is littered all over the text of 『浪花聞書』.

HOWEVER,

upon closer inspection of the original text here 浪花聞書 I have noticed a pattern. Every time the verb is written in kanji, it seems to be conjugated only with another kanji, as in 云 or 不云. In other words, when the verb is conjugated with hiragana, it is written as いふ or いわず. (This brings up another interesting point which I will not pursue.)

Therefore, it seems to me that perhaps I have been approaching this problem incorrectly all along.

Perhaps 云ゑて is not a set. Perhaps it is read more as (in modern Japanese)
江戸で「ゑて」などと云い、名前をいわずに人を指して云う。場所へも用いられる。

After looking over the text a little, this is the best that I can come up with. Any thoughts?

Mike Cash, maybe you were more correct than I originally thought!

云ふ was read 云う.

There were lots of conventions in prewar kana that look odd to us today.

The rules of orthography changed; not the rules of conjugation.

Mike Cash said:

云ふ was read 云う.

There were lots of conventions in prewar kana that look odd to us today.

The rules of orthography changed; not the rules of conjugation.

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Hahaha! This is funny, because there is no way you could know this, but I studied Meiji literature quite a bit in college. I learned about prewar kana almost as quickly as I learned postwar kana!

The problem here is not so much the kana usage as the "lack" of kana usage I think. By the way, there's a good site for learning prewar kana, but it's all in Japanese.

完全版 歴史的仮名遣い教室

Mikawa Ossan said:

Hahaha! This is funny, because there is no way you could know this, but I studied Meiji literature quite a bit in college. I learned about prewar kana almost as quickly as I learned postwar kana!

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I just picked up the old style kana and kanji piecemeal and imperfectly from reading some books published before the reform. When they're in some sort of context it's usually not too difficult to make a good guess at them.

The problem here is not so much the kana usage as the "lack" of kana usage I think. By the way, there's a good site for learning prewar kana, but it's all in Japanese.
完全版 歴史的仮名遣い教室

Click to expand...

And seems to take delight in using kana in the old way even in the explanations.

That's funny. You'd think they'd use the old kanji too, but they don't. I don't really get that. I guess they're just trying to focus on kana, and not the old orthography in general.

Mikawa Ossan said:

Perhaps 云ゑて is not a set. Perhaps it is read more as (in modern Japanese)
江戸で「ゑて」などと云い、名前をいわずに人を指して云う。場所へも用いられる。

Click to expand...

You're right.

ゑて
（聞き手にそれと分かる事物・人物・場所などをさして）例のもの。例のこと。例のところ。
「歩(あい)ばつし。―へ行つて、ももんぢいで四文(しもん)二合半(こなから)ときめべい/滑稽本・浮世風呂 3」

pipokun said:

You're right.
ゑて
（聞き手にそれと分かる事物・人物・場所などをさして）例のもの。例のこと。例のところ。
「歩(あい)ばつし。―へ行つて、ももんぢいで四文(しもん)二合半(こなから)ときめべい/滑稽本・浮世風呂 3」

Click to expand...

Thanks! I can finally put this to rest!

I just checked, and ゑて is not in my 古語辞典. Maybe I should get a new one some day.