先生が教室に入って... / お世話になった... / 眠られません / 時代が変わって...

eeky · 23 Nov 2010

Hiya,

1. 先生が教室に入ってこられたので、学生は立って礼をしました。

Translation given: "The students stood and bowed when their teacher entered the classroom."

Is こられた here an honorific form of きた (来た)?

2. お世話になったお礼に何か差し上げたいのですが。

Translation given: "I want to give you something in appreciation for your kindness to me."

What is the grammatical relationship between お世話になった and お礼に何か差し上げたいのですが? Does お世話になった modify お礼? How would that make sense?

3. ゆうべはコーヒーを飲みすぎて、なかなか眠られませんでした。

Translation given: "Last night I drank too much coffee and had a hard time getting to sleep."

What form of what verb is 眠られません?

4. 時代が変わってきたのに、男が変ってくれないので、外で働く女は、三重の苦しみをうけねばならなくなりました。

My translation: "Times have changed, but men have not (lit. have not given women the favour of changing), so (it has become the case that) women going out to work have to suffer in three ways."

a) Are the tenses in my translation OK?

b) Does 外で mean "outside the home"?

Chidoriashi · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Hiya,
1. 先生が教室に入ってこられたので、学生は立って礼をしました。
Translation given: "The students stood and bowed when their teacher entered the classroom."
Is こられた here an honorific form of きた (来た)?
2. お世話になったお礼に何か差し上げたいのですが。
Translation given: "I want to give you something in appreciation for your kindness to me."
What is the grammatical relationship between お世話になった and お礼に何か差し上げたいのですが? Does お世話になった modify お礼? How would that make sense?
3. ゆうべはコーヒーを飲みすぎて、なかなか眠られませんでした。
Translation given: "Last night I drank too much coffee and had a hard time getting to sleep."
What form of what verb is 眠られません?
4. 時代が変わってきたのに、男が変ってくれないので、外で働く女は、三重の苦しみをうけねばならなくなりました。
My translation: "Times have changed, but men have not (lit. have not given women the favour of changing), so (it has become the case that) women going out to work have to suffer in three ways."
a) Are the tenses in my translation OK?
b) Does 外で mean "outside the home"?

1. I don't think so, I think it is just passive.

2. Does this make sense to you? 食べたピザ。 If it does then you can understand お世話になったお礼

3. 眠る

4. Your tenses sound fine, but many times in translations you do not need to be too picky about them I think.

and yes 外 is referring to outside the home.

eeky · 23 Nov 2010

Chidoriashi said:
1. I don't think so, I think it is just passive.

Hi @Chidoriashi , thanks for your reply. Sorry, I don't understand this use of the passive. In English, the obvious (though it seems incorrect) translation would be 先生が教室に入ってこられた = "the teacher came into the classroom". There is no passive sense here that I can see.

LATER EDIT: Oh, unless it means that the students "suffered" the teacher's coming into the room??

Chidoriashi said:
2. Does this make sense to you? 食べたピザ。 If it does then you can understand お世話になったお礼.

Yes, 食べたピザ makes sense to me, but お世話になったお礼 doesn't.

食べたピザ = the pizza that (I) ate

お世話になったお礼 = (my) gratitude that ??? what ???

I don't understand how it works.

Chidoriashi said:
眠る

What form of 眠る? I was trying to make this verb work, but I don't understand what form of the verb it is. Passive seems not to make sense, and it's not the potential form, is it?

Toritoribe · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
1. 先生が教室に入ってこられたので、学生は立って礼をしました。
Translation given: "The students stood and bowed when their teacher entered the classroom."
Is こられた here an honorific form of きた (来た)?

Yes, it's an honorific of 来る. いらっしゃる is more polite than こられる.

eeky said:
2. お世話になったお礼に何か差し上げたいのですが。
Translation given: "I want to give you something in appreciation for your kindness to me."
What is the grammatical relationship between お世話になった and お礼に何か差し上げたいのですが? Does お世話になった modify お礼? How would that make sense?

お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼
appreciation for your kindness to me

It's the same structure to 失敗したお詫び.

eeky said:
3. ゆうべはコーヒーを飲みすぎて、なかなか眠られませんでした。
Translation given: "Last night I drank too much coffee and had a hard time getting to sleep."
What form of what verb is 眠られません?

That's a typo of 寝られません or 眠れません. The writer no doubt wanted to use the potential.

Chidoriashi · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Hi Chidoriashi, thanks for your reply. Sorry, I don't understand this use of the passive. In English, the obvious (though it seems incorrect) translation would be 先生が教室に入ってこられた = "the teacher came into the classroom". There is no passive sense here that I can see.
LATER EDIT: Oh, unless it means that the students "suffered" the teacher's coming into the room??
Yes, 食べたピザ makes sense to me, but お世話になったお礼 doesn't.
食べたピザ = the pizza that (I) ate
お世話になったお礼 = (my) gratitude that ??? what ???
I don't understand how it works.
What form of 眠る? I was trying to make this verb work, but I don't understand what form of the verb it is. Passive seems not to make sense, and it's not the potential form, is it?

Well, it looks like こられた is honorific. In any case though I think you will find lots of instances where passive is used in Japanese but is not really applicable in English. There are lots of things that are best translated in spirit rather than directly.

eeky · 23 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼
appreciation for your kindness to me
It's the same structure to 失敗したお詫び.

Sentences with this structure that I've come across before have, I think, always been translatable into English as a relative clause with "that", "which" or "who" (even if that translation isn't always the most elegant). For example:

姉が作った天ぷら = "the tempura that my sister made"

My attempts to translate お世話になったお礼 in the same way resulted in such nonsense as "my appreciation that became your kindness".

Should I think of お世話になったお礼 and 失敗したお詫び as being a different grammar altogether from, say, 姉が作った天ぷら? Or should I think of them as being just shorthand for some longer expression, such as your お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼?

Chidoriashi · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Sentences with this structure that I've come across before have, I think, always been translatable into English as a relative clause with "that", "which" or "who" (even if that translation isn't always the most elegant). For example:
姉が作った天ぷら = "the tempura that my sister made"
My attempts to translate お世話になったお礼 in the same way resulted in such nonsense as "my appreciation that became your kindness".
Should I think of お世話になったお礼 and 失敗したお詫び as being a different grammar altogether from, say, 姉が作った天ぷら? Or should I think of them as being just shorthand for some longer expression, such as your お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼?

I do not want to cramp your learning style or anything, but I think you might be making things harder on yourself, trying to be so specific. Japanese and English are two different languages and therefore I think you cannot translate everything word for word. Try to start learning to understand Japanese intuitively, how a native does. Learn to feel the expressions. Translating everything I think can cause a lot of unnecessary confusion. I used to try to do the same thing and it started giving me more headaches than it was worth. I think it is very hard to take two very different languages and say that "something" always equals "something". Anyhow that is just my 2 cents.

eeky · 23 Nov 2010

Chidoriashi said:
I do not want to cramp your learning style or anything, but I think you might be making things harder on yourself, trying to be so specific. Japanese and English are two different languages and therefore I think you cannot translate everything word for word. Try to start learning to understand Japanese intuitively, how a native does. Learn to feel the expressions. Translating everything I think can cause a lot of unnecessary confusion. I used to try to do the same thing and it started giving me more headaches than it was worth. I think it is very hard to take two very different languages and say that "something" always equals "something". Anyhow that is just my 2 cents.

I guess we all work differently, but I need to understand the underlying Japanese grammar and sentence structures, otherwise I am lost.

undrentide · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Sentences with this structure that I've come across before have, I think, always been translatable into English as a relative clause with "that", "which" or "who" (even if that translation isn't always the most elegant). For example:

姉が作った天ぷら = "the tempura that my sister made"

My attempts to translate お世話になったお礼 in the same way resulted in such nonsense as "my appreciation that became your kindness".

Should I think of お世話になったお礼 and 失敗したお詫び as being a different grammar altogether from, say, 姉が作った天ぷら? Or should I think of them as being just shorthand for some longer expression, such as your お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼?

I think they are different.
In case of 姉が作った天ぷら, 姉が作った directly modifies 天ぷら as you mentioned above.

お世話になったお礼 is more like "my thank-you for my being taken care of (by you)".
失敗したお詫び "my apologies for my failure (which caused you trouble/made you disappointed, etc.)

eeky · 23 Nov 2010

undrentide said:
I think they are different.

Thanks undrentide. I feel more comfortable thinking about it that way...

Toritoribe · 23 Nov 2010

eeky said:
Sentences with this structure that I've come across before have, I think, always been translatable into English as a relative clause with "that", "which" or "who" (even if that translation isn't always the most elegant). For example:
姉が作った天ぷら = "the tempura that my sister made"
My attempts to translate お世話になったお礼 in the same way resulted in such nonsense as "my appreciation that became your kindness".
Should I think of お世話になったお礼 and 失敗したお詫び as being a different grammar altogether from, say, 姉が作った天ぷら? Or should I think of them as being just shorthand for some longer expression, such as your お世話になった（ことに対する）お礼?

Yes, as @undrentide -san wrote,
it's a different grammar structure from 姉が作った天ぷら or the equivalent to the relative clause in English. That's a kind of 外の関係; "the outside relation". See the thread linked below.

koto & to iu in "to iu koto", "to iu imi", "to iu no wa" etc | Japan Forum

Some nouns, お礼, お詫び, 言い訳, 返事, 答え or like that, can take the adjectival clause which means "～ことに対する", as in the example sentence. When という is used for these nouns, the adjectival clause explains the contents of the noun.
e.g.
遅刻した言い訳（＝遅刻したことに対する言い訳）
an excuse for being late

彼のせいで遅刻したという言い訳
an excuse that I was late because of him

先生が教室に入って... / お世話になった... / 眠られません / 時代が変わって...

eeky

先輩

Chidoriashi

In imagination land

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Chidoriashi

In imagination land

eeky

先輩

Chidoriashi

In imagination land

eeky

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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