んとする

KrazyKat

先輩

17 Jan 2006

470

9

• 6 May 2006

• #1

「んとする」 I don't understand this construction. 何を意味するか分からないんです。
たとえば これらの作業を通じて自分が書かんとする テーマの参考文献がリスト・アップされます。

この「ん」は「む」から転じたんでしょうか

よろしくお願いします

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 6 May 2006

• #2

Yes, it comes from む.

Just for your information, 書こう and 書かん both come from 書かむ. What happened was in some dialects, the "n" disappeared, leaving just 書かう, and as you've seen before, "au" became "ou." In other dialects, the "u" disappeared, leaving a final nasal, and the only one of those in Japanese is ん.

 

KrazyKat

先輩

17 Jan 2006

470

9

• 7 May 2006

• Thread starter
• #3

面白い情報をありがとうGlennさん。

 

T

Tensai Bakabon

後輩

17 Apr 2006

8

2

• 7 May 2006

• #4

KrazyKat said:

「んとする」 I don't understand this construction. 何を意味するか分からないんです。
たとえば これらの作業を通じて自分が書かんとする テーマの参考文献がリスト・アップされます。
この「ん」は「む」から転じたんでしょうか
よろしくお願いします

Click to expand...

It's not "n to suru", it is "kakan to suru". "Kakan" is just "kakanai".

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 7 May 2006

• #5

I highly doubt that.

 

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

5 Mar 2006

1,516

78

• 7 May 2006

• #6

Glenn is correct. Take it away, koujien:
むとす
（推量の助動詞「む」に格助詞「と」とサ変動詞「す」 のついたもの。「んとす」とも）まさに…しようとする 。…するつもりだ。

 

J44xm

経験値が足りない

6 Dec 2004

556

13

• 7 May 2006

• #7

I just have one question, and it might be a dumb one, I warn you now: what is 書かむ (かかむ?)? I can't find it in WWWJDIC. Is it a standard verb? What am I missing here?

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 7 May 2006

• #8

It's an old volitional form. The modern standard equivalent is 書こう.

 

J44xm

経験値が足りない

6 Dec 2004

556

13

• 7 May 2006

• #9

Ah, I see. Many thanks, Glenn.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

9,839

135

• 7 May 2006

• #10

Glenn said:

It's an old volitional form. The modern standard equivalent is 書こう.

Click to expand...

It is a little confusing. I didn't realize 書かんとする was ever a dialect, either, and always just assumed it was an older form still used in 論文 and such. :?

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 7 May 2006

• #11

I assume it's older, too, because I think the standardization pretty much stamped it out as a "legit" form.

 

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

5 Mar 2006

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• 7 May 2006

• #12

んとす is not a dialect and it is alive and well as part of modern Japanese. 書かんとす(る), as the dictionary entry shows, can mean 書こうとする or 書くつもりだ depending on the situation. I'd say that in KrazyKat's example it's probably closer to the latter.

I forget whether the む->ん onbin is older than the む->う one or if it's the other way around, but both emerged centuries ago. Standardizing the writing of 書かう as 書こう probably happened sometime within the last 100 years.

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 7 May 2006

• #13

Yeah, I suppose the dictionary entry would imply that, wouldn't it?

I'd be surprised to see it as written 書こう before 1947, although I suppose it's not impossible, but 現代仮名遣い was standardized in 1947.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

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• #14

んとす is not a dialect and it is alive and well as part of modern Japanese. 書かんとす(る), as the dictionary entry shows, can mean 書こうとする or 書くつもりだ depending on the situation. I'd say that in KrazyKat's example it's probably closer to the latter.

Click to expand...

I would imagine so as well although I sent the translation to some friends both ways on a trial basis.

I forget whether the む->ん onbin is older than the む->う one or if it's the other way around, but both emerged centuries ago. Standardizing the writing of 書かう as 書こう probably happened sometime within the last 100 years.

Click to expand...

Does this bear at all also on the archaic 'm' still found in certain romanizations ? Nihombashi, shimbun for instance that are almost as conventional today if not more so than the 'n' transliteration.

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

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• 7 May 2006

• #15

I don't think so. That's a phonological rule that states that ん becomes assimilated to the place of articulation of the consonant that follows it. So it becomes "m" before "b" and "p," "n" before "t" and "d" (and I believe "s" and "z" too, but I'll have to check to be absolutely certain about that one), "ng" before "k" and "g," etc. The old む was a conjugation of the verb, just like (よ)う is nowadays.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

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• 7 May 2006

• #16

Glenn said:

I don't think so. That's a phonological rule that states that ん becomes assimilated to the place of articulation of the consonant that follows it. So it becomes "m" before "b" and "p," "n" before "t" and "d" (and I believe "s" and "z" too, but I'll have to check to be absolutely certain about that one), "ng" before "k" and "g," etc. The old む was a conjugation of the verb, just like (よ)う is nowadays.

Click to expand...

OK, thanks Glenn ! I couldn't think of any logical connection with the verb form either....Although it makes sense in terms of proununciation, those were just the two examples I had ever seen a replacement of the m for n.

 

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

5 Mar 2006

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• 7 May 2006

• #17

Glenn's right again. ん is pronounced /m/ before bilabials, /ng/ before gutturals and /n/ before everything else. む is an auxuliary verb that over time began to emerge as ん and う, but since 書かう should actually be pronounced 書こう, it was eventually standardized to be written that way.

I was going to say that む->ん also exists as part of the expression 言わんばかり as in:
彼は我々が悪いと言わんばかりの態度だった。
He gestured as if to say we were to blame.

But it turns out that that is actually the negation auxiliary verb ない/ぬ/ん

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

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• 8 May 2006

• #18

Be that as it may, it's an expression I didn't know, so I'm glad you brought it up.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

9,839

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• 8 May 2006

• #19

I didn't either and would have put the translation with an actual gesture in the affirmative as this :

彼は我々が悪いと言いたかったかのように身振りをした。