もわかるように / らしい

eeky · 4 Apr 2011

Hello,

1. 最近の海外移転の動きを見てもわかるように、製造業の生産性改善も限界に近いところまで進んでいる。

Translation given: "Recent overseas transfers show that productivity improvements in Japanese manufacturing industry have almost reached their limit."

I understand most of this OK, but I don't get ～もわかるように. How does that part work?

2. These are notes about the use of らしい:

「～そうだ」と違って、それを自分の頭で一度整理して伝える。
接続は名詞の現在形のほかはすべて普通形を使う。

I understand fragments, but I can't make any overall sense of this. Help!

Glenn · 4 Apr 2011

1. "As you can tell by looking at..." It's a bit curious that isn't in the translation given. Is it not a book that teaches Japanese?

2. "Unlike そうだ, this is said after having sorted it out in your head first. Aside from connecting to the present form of nouns, it attaches to the plain form of everything else." That's an interesting way to put that. I didn't think nouns had present forms in-and-of themselves. I wonder why they didn't say 直接に名詞に接続する or something along those lines.

eeky · 4 Apr 2011

Glenn said:
1. "As you can tell by looking at..."

Hi Glenn. I am still struggling to see this. I understand 最近の海外移転の動きを見て, but at the moment I don't see how も+わかる+ように amounts to "As you can tell by". What is the role of も? Does ように mean "in order to"? I'm trying to force something like "in order to understand, you (should) look at..." but it doesn't feel right.

Glenn said:
It's a bit curious that isn't in the translation given. Is it not a book that teaches Japanese?

This is an example sentence/translation from WWWJDIC. They are user-generated, I think, and of variable quality.

Glenn said:
2. "Unlike そうだ, this is said after having sorted it out in your head first.

The main difficulty I have with this sentence is understanding what それ refers to, and what is the subject and object of 伝える. This is what I'm trying:

それを自分の頭で一度整理する = (you) first sort out the information in your own head

それを伝える。 = (and you) convey the information

???

Glenn said:
I didn't think nouns had present forms in-and-of themselves.

Yeah, the contrast between the "present form" of nouns and "plain form" of everything else doesn't mean anything to me. Oh well...

Glenn · 4 Apr 2011

eeky said:
Hi Glenn. I am still struggling to see this. I understand 最近の海外移転の動きを見て, but at the moment I don't see how も+わかる+ように amounts to "As you can tell by". What is the role of も? Does ように mean "in order to"? I'm trying to force something like "in order to understand, you (should) look at..." but it doesn't feel right.
This is an example sentence/translation from WWWJDIC. They are user-generated, I think, and of variable quality.

これを見て and then わかる. これを見てわかる, "you can tell by looking" or "look/see it, then understand (what it is/something about it)". I think も is saying "even by looking at this", but I'm not entirely certain of that.

What I meant about the translation is that if it were from a book teaching Japanese it should be fairly literal in its translation, or have a literal and natural translation, but the point of keeping it literal is so that you have a better idea of what's going on with the original. After all, you're trying to practice the language, not translation.

eeky said:
The main difficulty I have with this sentence is understanding what それ refers to, and what is the subject and object of 伝える. This is what I'm trying:
それを自分の頭で一度整理する = (you) first sort out the information in your own head
それを伝える。 = (and you) convey the information
???

それ must refer to whatever it is you're reporting on.
Whatever you're reporting on/relayingを自分の頭で一度整理して, Whatever you're reporting on/relayingを伝える。

That's how I'm interpreting it without any further context.

eeky · 4 Apr 2011

Glenn said:
"look/see it, then understand (what it is/something about it)".

I like that. Treating it as an imperative makes more sense to me. In that case, would ように be a suggestion to "do (i.e. act) like this" (i.e. a suggestion to look and understand)? And perhaps も is just emphasising that the two things (looking and understanding) go together?

Glenn said:
それ must refer to whatever it is you're reporting on.

Right, that's clearer now.

Thanks!

Glenn · 4 Apr 2011

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that it was an imperative. I was forgetting about ように altogether, actually. What I meant was that 見てわかる is like the action of looking at or seeing something following by the action of understanding. Or maybe you could think of 見て as being like an adverb or a で-marked noun showing the means by which one understands (これでわかる → これを見てわかる (not that the two are equivalent).

The ように is like "like" or "as if" or "as though", or in this case, "as you can see (understand) by looking at..." I'd like to tie this in to some other use of ように or ようだ, but I can't make any connections right now. This may be a sort of unique use of it. I hope I'm not just confusing the situation at this point.

eeky · 4 Apr 2011

Oh, OK. If ように can have a meaning like "as you can..." then that would make sense. I haven't come across that one before (not that that means much!)

Toritoribe · 4 Apr 2011

I think も shows that 最近の海外移転の動きを見て is one of the reasons of the writer's opinion(製造業の生産性改善も限界に近いところまで進んでいる). And it often has a nunce of "even", as Glenn-san pointed out. Although I would use さえ instead of も for this case in order to make the meaning more clear. Incidentally, it would be the same usage as the one in this thread.

Indeed, this ように might be somewhat special. The meaning seems to be close to 通り.
見てもわかるように＝見てもわかる通り
仰るように＝仰る通り
ご存知のように＝ご存知の通り

eeky · 4 Apr 2011

Thank you both.

もわかるように / らしい

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

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