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もの　and こと the bane of my existence...

Emoni

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(Damn it, "existence" that is... I need more sleep this week)

Alright, for those who have studied around the JLPT 2 level you can probably share my confusion, suffering, and frustration. The 100 billion versions of mono and koto... they are used in so many different ways, sometimes having entirely different meanings and sometimes not even being the same word really. Pity to anyone who tries to find some relation between the essence of all the mono's or all the koto's.

I struggle to keep them and their usages separate while trying to gain an understanding of them as a whole. I am curious, how have you all dealt with this, and is there any site or material that helped you get these damn grammar patterns down?
 
Hajimemashite, emoni san.

Which usage of mono and koto is bugging you?

I believe you should learn the usages one by one. You don't have to learn them all at once.

Hirashin
 
Thanks for the link, it has a little bit of information that helps.

Mainly I'm speaking of grammar such as kotoka kotohanai kotomonai kotoda kotokara kotodakara kotonaku, and keeping those all in perspective. I may be able to understand the very basics of their intent but I don't really have a grasp on most or how to truly use it myself.

Even worse is the mono's... monono monodakara mono mon mononara monodehanai monogaaru... you get the idea. Throw these all together in an article and toss in a good tokoro and dokoro and you have me running around in circles.
 
Speaking in broad generalities:

"Mono" for the concrete and "koto" for the abstract.
 
Emoni said:
Even worse is the mono's... monono monodakara mono mon mononara monodehanai monogaaru... you get the idea. Throw these all together in an article and toss in a good tokoro and dokoro and you have me running around in circles.
Click to expand...
It's a major pain. For some reason, though, the below sentence ending ones seem to be a little more straightforward once you understand the "mono"/"koto" difference, attach the normal grammar, and remember the idiosyncracy....

Mono da, mono de wa nai, mono demo nai (Huge exceptions : to iu mono I still have a LOT of trouble distinguishing from plain mono ; mono ka, mono ga aru ((*regardless of how often I hear it* ) likewise very iffy)

Koto da, to iu koto da, koto ga/wa/mo nai, koto de wa nai...
 
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Mike Cash said:
Speaking in broad generalities:

"Mono" for the concrete and "koto" for the abstract.
Click to expand...


Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. As for the above explanation. I can grasp that idea, but it is moving beyond that and gaining a deeper understanding of how they connect. monono, mon don't fall in there for example and are effectively totally different anyway. Would you be able to explain further?
 
The states that are expressed by a few of these constructions (mono da, mono de wa nai, koto da, koto de wa nai, etc) as well as guidelines for end of sentence "mono/mon" particle use were previously discussed here :

Sorry for the digresssion, but I'm always partial to any approach that imposes order on the seemingly random.


物 と 事 | Japan Forum
Question time... | Japan Forum
 
Emoni said:
monono, mon don't fall in there for example and are effectively totally different anyway. Would you be able to explain further?
Click to expand...
Just a short follow up. Re : the above posted link.

Using generic nouns - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

Is the intent behind 'mon' always to sound annoyingly girlish and cute ?

Because I've heard it by women not only as an explanation (and that's why) but when they had to grumble about the behavior or a third party in a way that was as toughly masculine as possible.

Although never doubt it could be a result of my mishearing either way...
 
I just spoke with a Japanese tutor friend myself and was told that mon is kind of cutesy and annoying at times. I can't quite understand the essence of what she is referring to of course.

Thanks for the links, they seem very useful.
 
I felt your pain last year when studying for the test. Basically, you just have to memorize the differences, because the usage differences can be very large even if the words themselves sound very similar. Take many practice tests, read a lot, and do your best to memorize them.

If you are finding that you just can't seem to grasp the difference, don't spend too much time on certain ones--the study time could be better spend studying something else. Also, it is unlikely that a problem will come up on the the test that makes you distinguish between, for example, ものだ when used for saying you should do something and ことだ when used for saying you should do something.

In conclusion:

DO focus time on learning the difference between ones that sound similar (i.e., a ものなら and a ことから, or a ものがある and ものか） but have completely different meanings and are used in different contexts.

DO NOT focus too much time on trying to distinguish between ones that are similar in meaning (ie ものだ and ことだ). This is far more difficult, much more frustrating, and will constitute a far smaller percentage of test problems.

I think for general learning purposes, these nuances are things that can only really be picked up through constant exposure (or at least I hope so).
 
Emoni said:
I just spoke with a Japanese tutor friend myself and was told that mon is kind of cutesy and annoying at times. I can't quite understand the essence of what she is referring to of course.

Thanks for the links, they seem very useful.
Click to expand...
You're welcome. At times. Children particularly do make up a big catagory of use. But it is also possible as a colloquial, somewhat rough-sounding abbreviation of mono.


Check this out.


Japanese Tips
 
Mono da and the negative mono ja nai can be used to give orders when following a verb in the dictionary form. In this case, it is almost always contracted to 'n' and can easily be mistaken for the contraction n' of no.

Ike! Hayaku iku'n'da!
Go! Hurry up and go!
Kono koto o dare ni mo hanasu'n'ja nai!
Don't tell this to anyone!


Whoa, I had never heard that before. I thought it was the same ん just acting in a different way. That makes it so much easier to remember ものだ and ものじゃない (since everyone should already have a billion examples of んだ and んじゃねえ)
 
a usage of "mono da/mono de wa nai"; 常識(common sense)/教訓(lesson)

世の中というのはそういうものだ。
Yononaka to iu no wa sou iu mono da.
世の中っていうのはそういうもんだ。
Yononaka tte iu no wa sou iu mon da.

That's the way of the world.


人の悪口は言うものではない。
Hito no waruguchi wa iu mono de wa nai.
人の悪口は言うもんじゃない。
Hito no waruguchi wa iu mon ja nai.

Don't run down others.
 
hmm, my English dictionary says 'run down' is acceptable here but I have never heard it used this way and it sounds a bit strange to me. Does it sound normal to some of you other native English speakers? My first thought was 人を撥ねんじゃいない？言うまでもないことだろう。

badmouth, fitting the japanese and all, is great for 悪口.
 
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My take on んだ has always been a contraction of のだ in the command form. Because のだ、 and of course its formal counterpart ことだ、 can both used to express direct orders (You must...have to...this is a requirement...) or prohibited actions in the negative.

ものだ is significantly closer to "should," "ought to," or "this is the way it's done/the way people do things here" as measured against an abstract societal standard.


Disclaimer note : Nice site man, but you may still be a high level learner.
 
Elizabeth said:
Disclaimer note : Nice site man, but you may still be a high level learner.
Click to expand...

Sorry--what exactly are you trying to say here? Do you mean that people should take what is said on the site with a grain of salt?
 
Charles Barkley said:
Sorry--what exactly are you trying to say here? Do you mean that people should take what is said on the site with a grain of salt?
Click to expand...
It was an apology that also highlights the potential for misinformation floating around. Honestly, most of the points on mono still look valid, but I didn't have time to go through the examples in depth before posting that link.

困惑させてごめんね！
 
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英訳が適切じゃなかったみたいですね。失礼しました。
topicに戻ると、すでにElizabethさんが説明済みですが 、「んだ/んじゃない」が個々の具体例に対する命令/禁止を表すのに対して、「もんだ/もんじゃない」は一般的な常識、あるいは常識としての 禁止・不適切という場合に使われます。

今すぐ学校に行くんだ。(＝行きなさい)
彼とはもう二度と会うんじゃない。 (＝会ってはいけない)

人の話はよく聞くものだ。
使い慣れない言葉は使うもんじゃない。


また、「もんじゃない」を個別的な禁止命令に使える場 合もあります。

そんなことを言うもんじゃない。

この場合、「そんなことを言うんじゃない」の直接的に 叱責する感じに対して、諭すようなニュアンスが出ます 。つまり、常識の形をとることで婉曲的用法になってい るわけです。


あるいは、この用法を応用して、一般的な常識ではない けれど話者自身が強く思っている・信じているという場 合にも「もんじゃない」を使うことができます。

ディズニーランドなんて行くもんじゃない。 (他者に対する禁止命令ではなく、話者自身の意見表明)


こういう具合に「もの」も「こと」も用法が広いですか ら、すでに指摘されてるように簡潔に要約するのは難し いでしょうね。
(全文日本語で失礼しました。)
 
口語では「べき」の代わりに「ものだ」が使われること多いですね。
 
Elizabeth said:
口語では「べき」の代わりに「ものだ」が使われること 多いですね。
Click to expand...
ですね。「べき」は古語助動詞「べし」の連体形(adnom inal form)で、「べし」には「義務・当然・妥当」 等の意味がありますから、常識の「ものだ」と言い換え 可能なことが多いですね。
 

子供や、年下に諭すなら「XXXんじゃない」で、友達に言うのなら「XXXもんじゃない」ですね。

そうなんですね。たとえば、「もの」で終わる文なら、もう少し自分の感情を含めることがありますね。

いろいろな違いがありますね。
 
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