Question の as a replacement for people...?

Edit: Just after posting the message below, I realized that の at a sentence's end with rising tone indicates a question. So that would seem to be the answer to my question.

In the same dialogue, there was another sentence with の that I wasn't sure about: 「船に乗ったの？」. Initially I thought the の was superfluous, but now I understand it is simply a question marker.

I don't understand why Minna has never explained this either in vocabulary lists or in a grammar section. The authors quite frequently want to stretch their readers' cognitive abilities They have a devilish sense of humour!

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Not really. Those are what is called explanatory "no".

I seem to post my reply while you were editting.

xminus1 said:

My Minna textbook says: "の can be used as a replacement for things, but NOT for people".

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Actually, の can be used as a pronoun for people. I don't know why the textbook says so.
e.g.
あそこにいるのが父です。
The one over there is my father.

青いシャツを着ているのがチームメイトです。
The ones wearing a blue shirt are our team members.

Hi, Toritoribe:

Thanks as always for your reply! Yes, it was funny that I was editing my post when you were responding for the first time. I had second thoughts immediately, and you were very fast to write your reply to help me!

Ok, now back to our grammar discussion. It's definitely good to know that の is used as a pronoun for people. The Minna explanation is in Chapter 2, (page 21), of the beginner level series, second edition.

Looking at this example again just now, I don't I think the textbook has defined or illustrated this rule very clearly? It left me with the wrong impression.

Turning to your earlier explanation of "explanatory の", Toritoribe, what do you think of my idea that "の at a sentence's end with rising tone indicates a question"? Actually, I just looked の up on Jisho.org and this is one of the definitions.

Your "explanatory の" answer, however, has got me thinking. If the conversation between the grandfather and grandson had been in polite style, the "explanatory の" question would be something like: 「おばあちゃんは、いつ会ったんですか？ 」. In the direct style, though, we can expect to lose the か question marker, and also the だ ending the question. So we'd be left with just the ん: いつ会ったん. Would の replace the ん? いつ会ったの. Minna says の is used for writing, and ん is used in speech, and this was the reason I had originally discounted the possibility of いつ会ったの being "explanatory の".

This was a wordy reply, so I do hope your forgive me and offer your thoughts in return at your leisure.

Thanks again!

xminus1 said:

So we'd be left with just the ん: いつ会ったん. Would の replace the ん? いつ会ったの.

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Yes. But I don't think you ever end with the ん. It's basically like a contraction that naturally arose from speech. For example He's vs. He is.
But you would never say:
Is he Japanese?
Yes, he's.

xminus1 said:

Ok, now back to our grammar discussion. It's definitely good to know that の is used as a pronoun for people. The Minna explanation is in Chapter 2, (page 21), of the beginner level series, second edition.
ミラさんはIMCの社員ですか。Does Mr. Miller work at IMC?はい、IMCの社員です。Yes, he does.はい、IMCのです。X Incorrect use of の. の is used as a replacement for things but not for people.
Looking at this example again just now, I don't I think the textbook has defined or illustrated this rule very clearly? It left me with the wrong impression.

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I think the term "replacement" is a cause of the confusion.
Your textbook explains a rule that Noun B can be omitted in the construction "Noun A の Noun B" except when Noun B is people. The possession particle の is necessary also in the original construction, so it would be hard to say that の is replaced with the modified noun. I think it's more likely "omission" rather than "replacement" in this case.

A: これはIMCの製品ですか。
B: はい、IMCの製品です。/はい、IMCのです。
A: Is this a product of IMC?
B: Yes, it is a product of IMC.

When the noun is modified by an adjective or attributive phrase/clause, の is a pronoun, so it can be said "replacement".

A: 本を貸してくれませんか。
B: どんな本がいいですか。/どんなのがいいですか。
A: 面白い本がいいです。/面白いのがいいです。
A: Can you lend me some books?
B: What kind of books do you like?
A: I like interesting ones.

A': そこにある本を貸してください。/そこにあるのを貸してください。
A': Lend me the one over there.

This の can be used also for people, as in the examples in my previous post.

xminus1 said:

Turning to your earlier explanation of "explanatory の", Toritoribe, what do you think of my idea that "の at a sentence's end with rising tone indicates a question"? Actually, I just looked の up on Jisho.org and this is one of the definitions.

Your "explanatory の" answer, however, has got me thinking. If the conversation between the grandfather and grandson had been in polite style, the "explanatory の" question would be something like: 「おばあちゃんは、いつ会ったんですか？ 」. In the direct style, though, we can expect to lose the か question marker, and also the だ ending the question. So we'd be left with just the ん: いつ会ったん. Would の replace the ん? いつ会ったの. Minna says の is used for writing, and ん is used in speech, and this was the reason I had originally discounted the possibility of いつ会ったの being "explanatory の".

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Yes, your interpretation is correct. の is originally from "explanatory の", but it's also treated as a sentence ending particle in those usages. んですか is just a contruction of のですか, as mdchachi-san pointed out. The meanings are the same, but ん is more colloquial/friendly, thus, いつ会ったのですか sound more polite/formal.
However, の is not contructed when put right end of a sentence in standard Japanese. いつ会ったん is used in dialects, for instance in Kansai region, though.

xminus1 said:

This was a wordy reply, so I do hope your forgive me and offer your thoughts in return at your leisure.

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No need to hesitate about asking questions. Being able to reply means that I have enough time at that time.

mdchachi-sama and toritoribe-sama, thank you so much for your very instructive replies to my questions! Your expert knowledge is much appreciated!

I took some time to read the answers given in this thread pretty carefully and to make sure I understand the explanations. Here is my recap of the main points:





Phew! That seems like a lot to process for what I had thought initially was a fairly insignificant observation in my studies.

Please, if I've misinterpreted the original answers in my restatement here, please do let me know.

I am learning a lot here. I'm so grateful to the good people of JRef who apparently think that there are no stupid questions.

Thanks very much for being so generous with your expert knowledge!

I think you digested it pretty well. Allow me to be picky (or maybe just pendantic)

xminus1 said:

6. As an example of #5, we recall the plain/direct style sentence in the Minna dialogue (quoted in the first thread above):「おばあちゃんは、いつ会ったの？」.i) Had this sentence been in formal/polite style, we would have had: 「おばあちゃんは、いつ会ったんですか？」

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In the polite, formal style, you would have had おばあちゃんは、いつ会ったのですか？ (or, いつ会ったのでしょうか？)
Your answer isn't wrong, but I wanted to point out the even more polite form, and I think these are also preferred in written Japanese (unless just chatting or writing dialog).

And allow me to be super picky... Miller = ミラー (bar at the end extending the ラ sound)

Edit: I see Toritoribe-san has already discussed the formal いつ会ったのですか in his post above.

Hi, Majestic! Thanks for your kind reply. Please permit me to disagree with you about one thing: I don't think you were being picky at all! I think all careful learners, (I would aspire to be one myself), appreciate preciseness and erudition, and you generously demonstrated that yourself! Thank you for the correction and clarification.

Thanks again to all on this thread:

As for #1~3, actually, it's more simple. Only the construction/form affects whether it's "omission" or "replacement", not the meaning of の. See the following examples.

A: これはIMCの製品ですか。
B1: いいえ、IMCが作っている製品はこっちです。
B1': いいえ、IMCが作っているのはこっちです。
B2: いいえ、IMCの製品はこっちです。
B2': いいえ、IMCのはこっちです。

The attributive clause IMCが作っている indicates "the origin of the product", as same as MCの.

C: 赤い服は好きですか。
D1: いいえ、黄色い服が好きです。
D1': いいえ、黄色いのが好きです。
D2: いいえ、黄色の服が好きです。
D2': いいえ、黄色のが好きです。

Both 黄色い and 黄色の indicates the state/characteristics of the modified noun 服. の is not for possession or point of origin. Only the difference between the answers by D1 and D2 is that 黄色い is an adjective, but 黄色の is "noun + の".

I used the term "omission" for convenience sake, but の in IMCの製品は belongs to particle, whereas の in IMCのは is classified into 準体助詞/形式名詞 in Japanese grammar, so, strictly speaking, it's "seemingly omission". There is no proble to think it's just "omission", though.

xminus1 said:

B: どんな本がいいですか。/どんなのがいいですか。A: 面白い本がいいです。/面白いのがいいです。i) の is a pronoun substituting for "books", and is modified by adjective いい

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本 or the pronoun の is modified by どんな or 面白い, not いい here. 面白い is an adjective, and どんな is an attributive(連体詞). You can think どんな (or こんな/そんな/あんな, この/その/あの/どの 大きな/小さな, etc.) is a kind of uninflected adjective.

Toritoribe said:

Both 黄色い and 黄色の indicates the state/characteristics of the modified noun 服. の is not for possession or point of origin. Only the difference between the answers by D1 and D2 is that 黄色い is an adjective, but 黄色の is "noun + の".

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That is really interesting. Thanks for correcting my error about の -- it's the construction rather than the meaning of の that is governing the usage in question. I will need to amend my notes!

Toritoribe said:

本 or the pronoun の is modified by どんな or 面白い, not いい here. 面白い is an adjective, and どんな is an attributive(連体詞). You can think どんな (or こんな/そんな/あんな, この/その/あの/どの 大きな/小さな, etc.) is a kind of uninflected adjective.

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Another important correction! Thank you. If I am able to learn from all my mistakes, I should be learning a lot

You are very kind to be helping out my ignorance like this...thank you so much!