とも and をも

[Damicci]

I have been seeing these pop up in sentences. Is this a way of saying [and also]?

I am not sure about をも I figure も is capable of marking the direct object as an inclusion.

 

[Elizabeth]

I have been seeing these pop up in sentences. Is this a way of saying [and also]?

I am not sure about をも I figure も is capable of marking the direct object as an inclusion.

Anyway, whichever, even if, both, also called, rather, certainly ．．みたいな感じだと「とも」といいますが「を も」は使いませんね。

 

[Damicci]

Best definition I can see for とも is "As well as".
I swear I saw someone use をも on here.

 

[epigene]

Best definition I can see for とも is "As well as".
I swear I saw someone use をも on here.

Yes, it's common usage, though more often found in written Japanese.

とも is used to mean "and also" as in:
知子ともうまくやっていきたい。
I want to get along also with Tomoko.
*Please note also that "tomo" has other usages that are totally different from this.

をも is used differently to mean "even including" with the emphasis on "even":
トヨタをも含めた自動車メーカー
Car makers even including Toyota

 

[Elizabeth]

Best definition I can see for とも is "As well as".
I swear I saw someone use をも on here.

Well, you learn something new all the time....thanks Epigene !

とも I'd have to see an example of to respond any further. The word in isolation has a boatload of meanings plus some depending on usage, kanji, whether it's a suffix or root word etc....

 

[nhk9]

"to mo" is usually used with nouns, with the meaning of "both", or "all". ie. "futari tomo". E.g. "futari tomo nihonjin desu" "both are Japanese".

 

[Damicci]

So, I am checking up on とも
and My 文法辞書 shows:
このプロジェクトは遅くとも来年の四月には完了するだろう。
But that's it. Onlu uses とも for "no matter/ at ~ est." as usages.
A bit confusing.

 

[Elizabeth]

So, I am checking up on とも
and My 文法辞書 shows:
このプロジェクトは遅くとも来年の四月には完了するだろう。
But that's it. Onlu uses とも for "no matter/ at ~ est." as usages.
A bit confusing.

Is the 'no matter/whatever (whichever, whoever...) may /even though' reading easy to spot if it's always after the volitional form of the verb, I wonder ?

何が起ころうとも (No matter what may happen....)

いつ来ようとも (Whenever you may come...)


The tomo as "both, all, as well as, together with etc" is this kanji 共。

Could it be the dictionary was only giving hiragana definitions ? The one in the example is always attached to adverbs (at the latest, least, earliest....). Hehe, unbelievably there is some order to とも after all.

 

[undrentide]

It seems that several different words were all mixed up here.
I can imagine how confusing it could be... it is confusing for me too, when trynig to explain differences..


(1) とも
- even if, no matter what, even though
何を言おうとも無駄だ。
何が起ころうともこの事実は変わらない。
- approximate degreeof time, volume, etc.
遅くとも明日には到着するだろう。
早くとも２日後になるだろう。

You can replace this とも by ても.

(2) と＋も (meaning also, too, as well)
The phrase/sentence still makes sense when you knock off も (which is impossible for the above (1) とも).

知子とうまくやっていきたい。 I want to get along with Tomoko.
知子ともうまくやっていきたい。 I want to get along with Tomoko, too. (as well as with others.)

この花は天人唐草と呼ばれる。 THis flower is called Ten'nin-karakusa.
この花は天人唐草とも呼ばれる。 THis flower is also called Ten'nin-karakusa. (It has another name or two.)

僕の意見は君と違っている。 My opinion is different from yours.
僕の意見は君とも違っている。 My opinion is different from yours (besides being different from others.)

(3) と＋も (strengthen negation, accompanied with negative word such as ない)
なんとも言えない cannot word it (in any way/style).
誰とも遊ばない He won't play with anyone.

In case of (2) and (3), the link of と and も is just coincidence. と could be any other particle.

 

[Damicci]

It seems that several different words were all mixed up here.
I can imagine how confusing it could be... it is confusing for me too, when trynig to explain differences..


(1) とも
- even if, no matter what, even though
何を言おうとも無駄だ。
何が起ころうともこの事実は変わらない。
- approximate degreeof time, volume, etc.
遅くとも明日には到着するだろう。
早くとも２日後になるだろう。

You can replace this とも by ても.

Yeah the Dictionary explains this too with ても as possible substitute.

(2) と＋も (meaning also, too, as well)
The phrase/sentence still makes sense when you knock off も (which is impossible for the above (1) とも).

知子とうまくやっていきたい。 I want to get along with Tomoko.
知子ともうまくやっていきたい。 I want to get along with Tomoko, too. (as well as with others.)

この花は天人唐草と呼ばれる。 THis flower is called Ten'nin-karakusa.
この花は天人唐草とも呼ばれる。 THis flower is also called Ten'nin-karakusa. (It has another name or two.)

僕の意見は君と違っている。 My opinion is different from yours.
僕の意見は君とも違っている。 My opinion is different from yours (besides being different from others.)

(3) と＋も (strengthen negation, accompanied with negative word such as ない)
なんとも言えない cannot word it (in any way/style).
誰とも遊ばない He won't play with anyone.

In case of (2) and (3), the link of と and も is just coincidence. と could be any other particle.

So that was confusing me, The とも I was originally talking about is not one word but 2 particles.

Now it makes a bit better sense. And it seems the 3rd installment here is えeasier to recognize with negative words.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Elizabeth]

Yeah the Dictionary explains this too with ても as possiblr substitute.


So that was confusing me, The とも I was originally talking about is not one word but 2 particles.

Now it makes a bit better sense. And it seems the 3rd installment here is えeasier to recognize with negative words.

Thanks everyone.

This tomo is definately one word.

共 【きょう; とも】 (1) both; all; and; as well as; including; with; together with; (2) (きょう only) (abbr) communism; (3) (とも only) neither (with negative verb)

 

[undrentide]

This tomo is definetely one word.

共 【きょう; とも】 (1) both; all; and; as well as; including; with; together with; (2) (きょう only) (abbr) communism; (3) (とも only) neither (with negative verb)

I don't think the とも Damicci is talking about is written in kanji.
It is always written in kana.
The kanji 共 in the (1) meaning is used such as 共に, which is similar to 一緒に.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't think the とも Damicci is talking about is written in kanji.
It is always written in kana.
The kanji 共 in the (1) meaning is used such as 共に, which is similar to 一緒に.

It also doesn't always show with a kanji display + に but I think in hiragana at least this is the same とも (usually meaning "both" ?) nhk9 mentioned earlier.

"to mo" is usually used with nouns, with the meaning of "both", or "all". ie. "futari tomo". E.g. "futari tomo nihonjin desu" "both are Japanese".

Forgive any annoying grammar, but I also used them in a recent post :

日本語はあいまいとも話せるしはっきりとも話せるといえるでしょう。

In this above case, to mo is also clearly incidental, right ? not a single word. I could easily have substituted 日本語は論理的にも話せるし非論理的にも話せるという or other particles such as に for the と adverbs.


その言語両方とも（共）面白い特徴がある言語なのですね。


Maybe Damicci-san can give another example. I'm really confused now and just want to stop thinking about this....

 

[Damicci]

So the kanji usage of とも＝共 is explained as "as well as" or "along with" in the 文法辞書。

BUT they use the form と共に。。。。。。。。。

When と共に is following a verb, it is read "as; while"
When と共に is following a adjective, it reads "as well as"
As for nouns, if the noun is an event or action it reads "at the same time as; when; as with" depending on the event or action represented by the noun.

例文：
彼は科学者であると共に哲学者でもあった。
He was a Philosopher as well as a Scientist.

文法を復習すると共に漢字の勉強も忘れてはならない。
While you review grammar, you should not forget to study kanji.

僕は里絵子と共に東京に行きたいんです。
I want to go to Tokyo along with Rieko.
(This is th instance where と一緒に is a suitable substitute.)

So it seems there are many different ways to say the previous statements. I guess it is good to know both depending on who you speak to.

So

日本語はあいまいとも話せるしはっきりとも話せるといえるでしょう。

Your saying (One can say Japanese can be clearly spoken as well as unclearly spoken.) Is that right?

 

[Nagato]

I also found tomo used to emphasize affirmation
はい、もちろんですとも ~Yes, of course.
できますとも ~of course, (you) can.
etc

I can't classify these examples to the categories Undrentide-san posted above.

彼は私を触れようともしない。悲しいわ。
this seems to be in - approximate degreeof time, volume, etc.
But somehow, I feel it's different.

あなたともあろう方が。。。 A person like you...
Is it the same with あなたという（のような）人が ?

 

[Elizabeth]

Your saying (One can say Japanese can be clearly spoken as well as unclearly spoken.) Is that right?

そうそれ！

I also found tomo used to emphasize affirmation
はい、もちろんですとも ~Yes, of course.
できますとも ~of course, (you) can.
etc

そうですね。いろいろ使い方がありますね。

ｕｎｄｒｅｎｔｉｄｅさん、意識しないで、間違いなく、使い分けているよね。