「する」と「してくれる」の違い

We have some Filipino trainees at work since last October and they speak Tagalog, English, and some easy Japanese. I'm almost the only one they ask questions to because I'm happen to be the only one who doesn't mind speaking in English with them. (Actually, I've been really enjoying this opportunity, even though their English is way too different from the one I learned at school.)

The other day, one of them asked me the difference from "suru" and "shitekureru", and the following is how I answered him:

When we use the word "suru", we just describe what someone did, and that's all, but if "suru" is replaced with "shitekureru", the sentence will have a nuance that the speaker is feeling happy or thankful about the person's action.

I also gave some examples such as:
1)Kanojo ha watashi no heya wo souji shimasu. （彼女は私の部屋をそうじします。）
She cleans my room.
2)Kanojo ha watashi no heya wo souji shitekuremasu. （彼女は私の部屋をそうじしてくれます。）
She cleans my room (for me)/(I'm feeling so happy about it.)

I don't think he really understood what I was trying to say, and, telling you the truth, I myself am not really sure what I said was alright or not. You know, I'm kinda scared of their questions, I just wish I could be more helpful.
Anyway, can anyone explain the difference for us in Enlgish? I'm going to copy and print out your explanation and hand it to him.
Thanks in advance!

P.S.
「する」を「してくれる」に置き換えると、何かをした人に対して、話し手が、「あの人は私のためにそのことをしてくれたんだ、ありがたいな～。」といった気持ちを抱いていると、私は思うのですが、英語で説明するとなかなかうまくいかないんです。 また、皮肉っぽく、「あいつが余計なおせっかいをしてくれるから、おれが課長にしかられることになったんだよ！」なんていうように使うこともありますよね。。。 「してくれる」が使われた文には「私のために」という言葉が隠されているって説明してもいいかな？ともおもっていますが、あ～、むずかしい。

どなたかお手伝いをお願いします。 （ぺこり）

A-san ga (x wo) suru.
"A-san does x."

A-san ga (x wo) shitekureru.
A-san does x FOR ME.

The easiest explanation I can think of.

Generally kureru is used in a positive manner, but as you said it, it can be used in sarcastic situations. Another common one is "no okage de" - replacing the more direct "no sei de"

Anyway going back to kureru, I think what you have written down are fairly accurate. You may know this already, but Japanese tend to group themselves into , so that's why in some situations, instead of 'I', the subject receiving the favour can be 'us'.

Also, I am not sure about the 'feeling happy part'. What is known for sure is that someone did a favour to you. So in essense you should be feeling grateful, having received the favour, but not necessarily happy. Just my 2 cents

Mikawa Ossan said:

A-san ga (x wo) suru.
"A-san does x."
A-san ga (x wo) shitekureru.
A-san does x FOR ME.
The easiest explanation I can think of.

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I think this is indeed a fairly good explanation, I'd try to explain it this way too.
Also, "shitekureru" sounds not only like an implicit expression of gratitude like you say Kyoko, I personally think.. How do you say this in English?
だから、「してくれる」って言ったらなんか相手が苦労して何かをやるって風に聞こえるやん？「する」は苦労もせずに済む仕事ってかどうせ楽チンって感じ・・かな？

ps:Sorry for my bad English AND my even worse Japanese

I had a lengthy post that got lost; I'll try to paraphrase.
Explaining grammar structures seems to be particularly difficult for native speakers, I think you did a fairly good job there Kyoko san.

The use of verb～てくれる、～てあげる、and ～てもらう are along the same lines as くれる あげる and もらう, except that instead of giving and receiving physical objects, you are giving and receiving actions. If your coworkers understand the use of くれる あげる and もらう, it should make it much easier to explain these forms. If they don't understand them I might be able to help with that later.

Here are a couple examples I like to use for the ～てくれる forms

母が洗濯しました。
my mom did the laundry. A plain fact.

母が洗濯してくれました。
my mom did the laundry (for me, most likely my laundry). There's more of a personal feeling behind this sentence; more of an implied gratitude towards mom.

洗濯してくれてありがとう。
most likely would be translated as: thanks for doing my laundry (lit: thanks for doing the laundry for me). The gratitude is apparent for the action done for my sake.

Thank you so much!

Thank you all so much, Mikawa Ossan san, nhk9 san, leonmarino san, and nice gaijin san. After reading all your replies, I think I can explain the difference to him a lot better now.

As for「～てくれる」,「～てあげる」,「～てもらう」, they do seem very important and useful, so, nice gaijin san, could you give me the explanation about them when you have time? He might already understand it, but I would like to see how they are explained in English to non native Japanese speakers. As five more Phillipino trainees will be coming to join us in 5 months, maybe I will need to explain them how to use those words.

Originally Posted by nice gaijin
Explaining grammar structures seems to be particularly difficult for native speakers

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Yes yes! The questions from non native speakers sometimes amaze me! I didn't even know that Japanese language doesn't have a future tense. And I didn't know that we really don't pronounce the vowel "u" when we say "desu" or "masu". There must be more stuff I still don't know about my mother tongue, well, I've been learning alot here in this forum.
Arigatou gozaimasu, and korekara mo yoroshiku onegai shimasu!

Kyoko_desu said:

Yes yes! The questions from non native speakers sometimes amaze me! I didn't even know that Japanese language doesn't have a future tense. And I didn't know that we really don't pronounce the vowel "u" when we say "desu" or "masu". There must be more stuff I still don't know about my mother tongue, well, I've been learning alot here in this forum.

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Yeah, sometimes doinkies finds it hard to explain some parts of English grammar to non-native speakers too. But I think nice gaijin's explanation is pretty detailed and should help the trainee. ^^

Kyoko_desu said:

As for「～てくれる」,「～てあげる」,「～てもらう」, they do seem very important and useful, so, nice gaijin san, could you give me the explanation about them when you have time? He might already understand it, but I would like to see how they are explained in English to non native Japanese speakers. As five more Phillipino trainees will be coming to join us in 5 months, maybe I will need to explain them how to use those words.

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Alright I'll give it a shot.

When using くれる and あげる, it's important to be aware of who is giving and who is receiving the action, and where they stand (socially) in relation to the person who is speaking. It helps to envision concentric circles, denoting levels of relationship to oneself. I believe this could be found somewhere in the Genki textbooks, but I don't have them right now for reference.

Both くれる and あげる translate to "give," but they both imply a different direction on this chart. If you were giving anything to anyone, you would use あげる. Similarly, if anyone was giving to you, it would be くれる. A stranger giving your friend something would also most likely be くれる.

So...
I give to you...
I give to someone else...
You give to someone else...
a stranger gives to another stranger...
...would all be あげる

And...
You gave me...
Someone else gave me...
Someone else gave you...
...would be くれる (or more appropriately, くれた)

So these words imply your relationship with the person you're speaking to, and the person who is giving and receiving the actions mentioned. It seems subtle, but in use it is a very clear indicator of these relationships, and mistakes are noticeable. For instance, you would never say 私にあげた; although it translates to "...gave to me," the verb あげる indicates an outward-directed action.

I don't remember the genki books explaining もらう very well, but I think it can fit into a similar chart. The chart for もらう, however, is not based on the person speaking, but rather on the person who is actively receiving.
With もらう, the chart is much more simple; you are either the person receiving the action, or the person from whom the action is received. The arrow is showing the direction of the receiving, but it is the subject who is performing the "act" of getting.

もらう translates more to "receive" or "get," and it indicates that in order to attain the item in question, the subject had to do something. Whereas くれる and あげる are passive verbs for giving, もらう is an active verb for receiving.

some examples:
両親が車をくれました
(My) parents gave (me) a car; perhaps without any prompting, or unexpectedly. How fortunate.
versus
私は両親に車をもらいました。
I got a car from my parents; indicating that something had to be done to receive the car. Could be as simple as asking, but it required some kind of action.

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Now, this is something that I think Genki leaves out altogether: These verbs act the same way whether you are talking about giving and receiving physical objects, or actions. By putting verbs in the ～て form and adding くれる、あげる or もらう, you can indicate that:

誰かが（私に）何かをしてくれた
someone did something for me
あなたが（私に）何かをしてくれた
you did something for me
誰かがあなたに何かをしてくれた
someone did something for you

（あなたに）何かをしてあげた
I did something for you
（誰か）に何かをしてあげた
I did something for someone else
あなたが誰かに何かをしてあげた
you did something for someone else

誰かに何かをしてもらった
I got someone else to do something for me
何かをしてもらった
I got you to do something for me
あなたが誰かに何かをしてもらった
You got someone else to do something for you
誰かが誰かに何かをしてもらった
Someone got someone else to do something for them

of course, practically any verb in the ～て form can be used, from 洗濯をしてくれました to 友達に二千円を貸してあげました to 死んでもらいます. Once the directions of these verbs become understood a wide variety of sentences can be constructed.

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The only thing I haven't gone into much detail about here are the particles used for these forms, but basically

for くれる:
the person giving is the subject, so it is marked by が (or は), or can be omitted altogether if it's "I"

the person receiving is followed by に. This indicates that the direction of the action is towards that person.

for あげる:
The same rules apply as くれる

for もらう:
Since the active verb of the sentence is "receive," the subject is now the person doing the receiving...

and the person from whom the item or action is received is now marked by に.

and of course, for all of these, the direct object of the "giving" action is marked by を

Also important to mention is that your coworkers probably are already using these forms, even if they don't realize it.

Whenever they ask for something using ください or してください, they are using a polite form of くれる and してくれる (or less polite in the case of してくれ). Although it's unlikely they use much keigo yet, さしあげる and していただけますか are other forms of あげる and もらう, respectively.

Kyoko_desu said:

「してくれる」が使われた文には「私のために」という言葉が隠されているって説明してもいいかな？ともおもっていますが、あ～、むずかしい。

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I think that's your best bet.

nice gaijin さん、「くれる」「あげる」「もらう」は、誰が誰にgive して、そのことを誰が話しているかによって使い分ける必要があるので、ネイティブじゃない人はきちんとこうやって整理をしておぼえていく必要があるんですね。昨日は研修生と話をするチャンスがなかったのでコピーをわたすことができませんでしたが、来週「こわ～い、こわ～い享子先生」として、この使い分けを彼らに教えちゃうつもりです！えへ、うまくできるかな？ わかりやすくて丁寧な説明を本当にありがとうございました。

Originally Posted by Gaijinian
I think that's your best bet.

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むはは！ありがとぉ！