Gaijin, Gaikokujin, as in a negative thing? Outsider or foreigner?

I was reading a site which had english translations for japanese words or phrases, i quickly noticed that who ever wrote the article had some issues against non-japanese people, but somthing he/she said struck me;

"Gaijin
A strange, smelly, often nasty creature, with peculiar eating habits and bizzare mating rituals. Gaijin must be watched at all times, lest they do something bizzare and unthinkable.

The literal translation of the Kanji characters is "outside" "person", i.e. Foreigner.

As an English Teacher, one thing I try to do is to teach my students common word-pairings: "heinous crime," "overwhealming majority" etc. These are called 'collocations' - words that go together. Some common collocations for 'gaijin'?

* abunai gaijin = dangerous foreigner.
* baka gaijin = stupid foreigner.
* henna gaijin = weird foreigner. "


"Gaikokujin
A Foreigner.

Technically Gaikokujin just means the same as the much more common term Gaijin - both mean "Foreigner". However, there's a world of difference between the two terms, and many Gaijin are aware of it. Looking at the root meanings of the Kanji characters we see that the underlying meanings are subtly different.

# "Gai"
Outside
# "Koku "
Country
# "Jin"
Person
So "gai" "jin" is an outsider, but "gai" "koku" "jin" is a person from another country, ie. a foreigner. Which would you rather be, a foreigner, or an outsider?

Unfortunately, whilst "gaijin" can often carry overtones of "barbarian", not everyone uses or intends it in that way, it's all in the tone of voice, much like "gringo" in Latin America. What you can say for sure is that if a Japanese person is using "gaikokujin", then they are making an effort to be polite and respectful."

.... .... ....
....So basically if a japanese person calls or refers to you as a "Gaijin" rather than "Gaikokujin" they are calling you a negative thing in the way that calling somone an "otaku" in the scenario of indicating to somone they need a social life or they are weird sort of thing?
I never knew that when a japanese person calls somone a Gaikokujin they were making an effort to be polite to you?

This is the site where i got this info off;

Japanese Cultural Glossary - traditional terms and pop-culture references

Has anyone been befriended by a "gaijin groupie" before or anything as well?

From what I've heard, the term Gaijin is supposed to be neutral. At least this what I've been hearing.

It looks like the entire site was written very tongue in cheek, but there are some fairly interesting pop culture references. I'd take pretty much every entry with a large block of salt.

That said, most people don't mean anything when they say gaijin. It's just easier than saying gaikokujin. In fact, the only time I was ever referred to as gaikokujin was when I was getting my gaikokujin tourokusho, or alien registration card. Gaijin is just an abbreviation of a longer term, and if anybody knows about abbreviations, it's the Japanese.

I, and I'm sure most who have been to Japan, have been approached by a "gaijin groupie." I don't think it has the same connotation as a band groupie, however, as most people either ask a simple question, or want to try out some english. They don't jump into your arms and smack kisses on your face.

And yes, gaijin essentially means outsider, but what it boils down to is anyone who isn't a Japanese citizen, naturalized or other.

You can usually tell if people are being nice or not, by their tone. But, on the whole, gaikokujin can be quite formal, and some simply say gaijin-san, 'Mr Gaijin', as it were. You can choose to take offence at 'gaijin' or not, but on the whole, it's not meant maliciously. It might sound funny, being so formal as to say 'gaikokujin'to a foreigners face. Its just more chummy to say 'gaijin' (or at least, people who spoke to us meant no harm in saying the shorter form, they were just not being embarressingly formal ^_^)
As for the groupie, in my months there we only really got approached by people just wanting to try a bit of English on us. In our university we were studying at, the only Gaijin groupies were a handful of girls who wanted to get with the foreign guys to learn english (they admitted this to us, one drunken evening).

Ma Cherie said:

From what I've heard, the term Gaijin is supposed to be neutral. At least this what I've been hearing.

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From the way I heard it used (not always but often) in Japan, gaijin is more negative than gaikokujin, itself more negative than the use of a specific nationality. I don't remember hearing anybody referring to a foreign head of state or diplomat as "gaijn" or "gaikokujin", for instance.

「外国人」も「外人」もともに中立的でその語自体には差別や悪意はありません。
ただ、「外人」は「外国人」の短縮形でフランクな響きがあります。それ故使われる場によっては失礼にとられる事もあります。
このような誤解が生まれる原因は、そもそも現代の日本では、「外国人」の「差別形」が死語となりほとんど使われなくなったという事実があるように思われます。（なかにはインターネットを通じて復活しつつあるものもありますが・・・。）
具体的には以下のような語がかつては差別語として使用されていました。
白人（西洋人）＝毛唐
アメリカ人＝アメ公
中国人＝チャン、チャンコロ
朝鮮人（韓国人）＝チョン
このような語はだいたい1970年代までには死語化したようで、差別問題について勉強するまで私は知りませんでした。（特定地域では例外もあるかもしれませんが・・・。）
したがって、「外国人」を賞賛する場合であろうが差別する場合であろうが、ともに「外国人」「外人」という語が使用されるわけですが、たまたま後者の場合を耳にした人が、「外国人＝差別語」といった印象・偏見をもってしまうのでしょう。
ただ、国際化の時代に、「外国人」といった語をあえて必要以上に使用する場合、排他的、少なくとも洗練されていないと捉えられるようにはなってきています。

It's funny you mention 毛唐: that's the second time today I've heard it. Just to be clear, I heard it in explanation both times; no one called me that (thank God!). Thanks for listing the derogatory terms; I knew about 毛唐 and had heard about バカチョン being used for the auto-focus cameras that came out in the 1980s, so I kind of knew the one for Koreans too, but I had never heard of チャン or チャンコロ for Chinese people. Do you know the roots of that word? It isn't readily apparent to me. The other two are pretty clear.

Now, as both an exercise and to help those of us who can't read Japanese, I'm going to translate this into English.

"Both gaikokujin and gaijin are neutral words, and there's no sense of malice or discrimination in either of them. However, since gaijin is a contraction of gaikokujin it has an effect of seeming frank. As a result, depending on the situation, it can be taken as being rude. The cause of this misunderstanding is that in present-day Japan it seems that the use of gaikokujin as a discriminatory word has all but disappeared (although there are some on the internet who are reviving that usage)*.

The following is a list of words that were formerly used as discriminatory words:
Caucasians (Westerners) = ketou
Americans = amekou (I'm guessing at the reading of 公, but that seems to be the most plausible one)
Chinese = chan, chankoro
Koreans = chon

These words seem to have fallen out of use in the 1970s, and I didn't know about them until I did some studying about the discrimination problem (of course there may be exceptions in certain areas...).
Accordingly, whether praising or being discriminatory both gaijin and gaikokujin are used, but incidentally people who hear gaijin hold the impression or bias that gaikokujin is a discriminatory word. However, in this age of internationalization, people who use the word gaikokujin more than necessary are taken as being at the least unrefined, if not exclusive."

*I'm not quite sure I'm understanding that sentence properly. Someone else may need to clarify if I've misunderstood.
Also, that last paragraph I don't have the utmost confidence in. If someone could point out any errors I'd be grateful.

Glenn said:

I knew about 毛唐 and had heard about バカチョン being used for the auto-focus cameras that came out in the 1980s, so I kind of knew the one for Koreans too, but I had never heard of チャン or チャンコロ for Chinese people. Do you know the roots of that word? It isn't readily apparent to me. The other two are pretty clear.

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私も詳しくは知りませんが、おそらく中国人に多い姓である「チャン」から単純に中国人一般を総称する蔑称になったのだと思います。朝鮮人（韓国人）に対する「チョン」も同様だと推測します。
「コロ」は「公」から変形したものだと思います。いずれも推測で申し訳ありません。
ちなみに「バカチョン」については、「チョン」という語が朝鮮人に対する蔑称である事自体が忘れ去れてしまった結果、逆に悪意もなく使用され続けているのだと思います。数年前にあるニュース番組のキャスターが、放送中「使い捨てカメラ」を紹介する際に、この言葉を使用して問題になった事がありましたが、私を含む若い世代の多くはその際にはじめて「バカチョン」がもともとは差別用語だと知った次第でした。（40歳前後のそのキャスター自身も差別用語である事は知らなかったそうです。）
アメリカでも、「ｊａｐ」という語を、それが差別用語である事、または差別用語として使われていた歴史がある事を知らずに、悪意なく使用する世代が出てきていると聞いた事がありますが、それと似たような現象なのだと思います。

I see. Thanks for the info.

About the use of バカチョン and "jap," that's a good point, although I think that usually it's the Aussies and New Zealanders who use it that way, and not so much Americans. I've haven't heard it used in a while, anyway. I suppose when word isn't used for a while younger people can learn it free of its old connotations and use it in a completely different way. Come to think of it, words change connotations anyway, regardless of whether they've fallen out of use for a few years.

ところで、私がやった上記の翻訳はどう思いますか。正確ですか。私はまだ知りませんから、ちょっと不安です。どうぞよろしくお願いします。

About the discriminatory term of Japan, it is writing to this site.
(A Japanese site)
http://kan-chan.stbbs.net/word/pc/main.html

In a dictionary
毛唐(KETOU)=毛唐人(KETOU JIN)
The meaning of "the hairy people from Tang." The word which despises and says a foreigner, especially Europeans and Americans.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%CC%D3%C5%E2&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=1

In addition to this.
紅毛人(KOUMOU JIN)
南蛮人(NANBAN JIN)

Is 異人(IJIN) a discriminatory term?

@Glenn さん、申し遅れましたが、翻訳ありがとうございました。当方の意を正確に伝えて頂いています。

I must say that if you are going to go to Japan to live, you'd better to get used to hearing it, gaijin, gaikokujin. It's one of the realities of life.
I simply think it's a foreigner and I do agree that the term has a bit feeling of "outlander" but I've grown accustomed to it. This is unlikely going to change in near future so you'd gotta bear with it, my fellow gaijins.

kkkktttt said:

私も詳しくは知りませんが、おそらく中国人に多い姓である「チャン」から単純に中国人一般を総称する蔑称になったのだと思います。朝鮮人（韓国人）に対する「チョン」も同様だと推測します。
「コロ」は「公」から変形したものだと思います。いずれも推測で申し訳ありません。
ちなみに「バカチョン」については、「チョン」という語が朝鮮人に対する蔑称である事自体が忘れ去れてしまった結果、逆に悪意もなく使用され続けているのだと思います。数年前にあるニュース番組のキャスターが、放送中「使い捨てカメラ」を紹介する際に、この言葉を使用して問題になった事がありましたが、私を含む若い世代の多くはその際にはじめて「バカチョン」がもともとは差別用語だと知った次第でした。（40歳前後のそのキャスター自身も差別用語である事は知らなかったそうです。）
アメリカでも、「ｊａｐ」という語を、それが差別用語である事、または差別用語として使われていた歴史がある事を知らずに、悪意なく使用する世代が出てきていると聞いた事がありますが、それと似たような現象なのだと思います。

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This is an interesting topic. According to Wikipedia, the discriminatory term used by Japanese towards Chinese "chyankoro" is supposedly derived from the Chinese term "zhongguoren" meaning "Chinese". I think it is fair to assume that ﾆ蛋ﾆ槌槌停? comes from the contraction of "chyankoro", instead of the popular surname "chan" (Actually back in the old days, the last name chan or ﾆ蛋ﾆ槌槌停? isn't nearly as common as the other surnames. This is because the transliteration "chen" was used virtually everywhere else, such as Taiwan and Chekiang Province (where lots of chen descendants live). Only in British controlled Hong Kong and nearby places would you see people having surnames "chan", since this is the more popular transliteration style of the surname 窶凖 there.

What I wanted to say is that the derogatory term "chyan" probably wasn't derived from "chan", otherwise it should've been something like "chyenkoro".

yaschan said:

I must say that if you are going to go to Japan to live, you'd better get used to hearing it, gaijin, gaikokujin. It's one of the realities of life.
I simply think it's a foreigner and I do agree that the term has a bit feeling of "outlander" but I've grown accustomed to it. This is unlikely going to change in near future so you'd gotta bear with it, my fellow gaijins.

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Since I have not been called a gaijin, and I don't know how it would've felt to be called that way (I am from Asia so I blend in with the locals, at least on the physical appearance terms), gaijin is still a rather, how should I say this, more reserved derogatory word for non-Japanese, relatively speaking. In comparison, the Chinese literally call caucasians "demons" (鬼子) and black people "black demons" (黑鬼). On one hand it may sound very offensive to those who are not familiar with the terms (and originally those terms had strong derogatory nuances), but nowadays the terms are even used by the foreigner themselves. On Chinese TV, 鬼子 or "西洋鬼子" wouldn't be censored in typical shows, but 黑鬼 lies somewhere on the border.

Personally, I dislike being called just 「外人」at least call me 「外国人」or best「外国の方」(though almost no one ever uses the last one ... )

I was referred to as 外人 in back in the States once by 2 Japanese women talking.

e-life said:

I was referred to as 外人 in back in the States once by 2 Japanese women talking.

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My Japanese friends did this all the time! It was hilarious that they couldn't stop calling us gaijin even in the States. It was never malicious, so we always pointed out they were the outsiders here...in a joking manner of course.

MeAndroo said:

My Japanese friends did this all the time! It was hilarious that they couldn't stop calling us gaijin even in the States. It was never malicious, so we always pointed out they were the outsiders here...in a joking manner of course.

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I have had it happen to me as well in the states and I was not as polite as you in pointing out to the people that said it that they were the "gaijin" here. They were shocked that someone would actually refer to them as that. In their minds it is an "us" and "them" attitude, even though they were in a foreign country they never once thought of themselves as being "gaijin", the mindset is very different.

Outsider indeed

In another forum (since finished), there was a story where a group of Japanese were drinking ina restaurant and kept talking about the gaijin around them. One of the Americans nearby, who spoke Japanese, came over and inquired if the Japanese visiting the US knew that they were gaijin now? The response was some angry yelling with one of the Japanese patrons throwing an empty beer bottle over. Different mindset indeed.

As a contrast in China, my students in Hong Kong would always ask me how long I had lived there. When I replied 3 years, they always stated it was a short time. The same students would then proceed to tell me about their 'long' 2 week stays in America?!

I am called a "gaijin" by many of the Japanese I know here in Colorado, even though im caucasian and was born here. It seems to me that many Japanese call people who are not japanese "gaijin", reguardless of what country they are in. I heard gaijin all the time when referring to americans when I went to Hawaii last time...

I think that some Japanese might mean it as a derigatory term, but many probably use it because it is the most common usage, or have just gotten used to using it. I never use the word "jap" when referring to Japanese people, but many people here in the USA, especially the older people, use it all the time, when they don't mean it in any negative way.

Bump to front.

Bump to front.

Frank

Frank D. White said:

Bump to front.
Frank

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Why bump? We have a brand new thread on it.