I thought I understoof です. I feel kinda dumb now. .助けて!

[Tsukemono San]

Ok, I probably shouldn't have to ask questions about です, だ anymore, but I'm really annoyed 'cause I can't find a super comprehensive online source for all this! (So throw me a bone here and tell me something I don't understand about です please!)

This is what I think I know: (Please correct where I'm wrong)
From what I understand, です and it's many, many conjugations don't exactly mean is, are, am, etc; it's used mostly to add politeness and/or a declarative feel to the sentence instead of actually stating that 'something is something'; so it isn't necessary (or correct?) after verbs that are already in a polite form. I've also read that じゃ is a contraction of では, and so they're interchangeable...

And conjugations wise, I'm confused about the correct usage of だろう, なら..
There's probably a dozen other questions I could ask, but I bet someone will answer some that I haven't even thought of yet..?? :roflmao:

One more thing.. I'm a little confused about something stupid like this:
ジョン：田中先生は? ((where is) Tanaka?)
アリス：学校です. ((he's at the/a) school.)
This could mean "Tanaka sensei is a school" right? Obviously a native speaker would know that's not what Alice is saying, but that kind of grammatical looseness is confusing to my English brain!!

 

[Mike Cash]

I thought I understoof です. I feel kinda dumb now. .助けて!

You need to break the connection between English modal verbs and です in your mind. A good way to start is to avoid looking for direct literal translations, or rather to avoid thinking that because we express something with a modal verb in English then it must have come from the same thing being there in the Japanese version.

Develop a feel for how it is used; don't get distracted by the translation.

 

[eeky]

This is what I think I know: (Please correct where I'm wrong)
From what I understand, です and it's many, many conjugations don't exactly mean is, are, am, etc; it's used mostly to add politeness and/or a declarative feel to the sentence instead of actually stating that 'something is something'; so it isn't necessary (or correct?) after verbs that are already in a polite form.

Typically だ/です does indeed mean "something is something", though I think you will find cases where it is not obviously natural to put it into English in that form. I don't think it is ever correct to put だ/です directly after another verb (in any form), but not particularly for any reason like duplication of politeness. I just don't think it makes grammatical sense.

I am only a learner so hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DWolfs]

One more thing.. I'm a little confused about something stupid like this:
ジョン：田中先生は? ((where is) Tanaka?)
アリス：学校です. ((he's at the/a) school.)
This could mean "Tanaka sensei is a school" right? Obviously a native speaker would know that's not what Alice is saying, but that kind of grammatical looseness is confusing to my English brain!!

です/だ can often be used as replacement for the verb used in a question so you don't have to repeat it.

As in your example:

田中先生は is actually 田中先生はどこにいますか。

and you can reply to this:
学校にいます。 or 学校です。

This obviously doesn't mean he is a school, but just used to replace 'にいます'. Beware you have to omit the particle when you use です in such a context.

Another example:

何を食べましたか
鮨をを食べました => 鮨です

 

[LewiiG]

I know the feel.
In addition to what was said previously,

I have heard in many places that it is wrong to use です after a verb (despite the fact I swear I keep hearing it among certain anime characters).The only place you may think you hear です after a verb is when they add こと after the verb (or の、or ん）.

では and じゃ are interchangable in their relative applications TO MY KNOWLEDGE! (may need verification)

Kind of don't get what you mean by conjugation wise, but...
だろう/でしょう if you know what it can mean, but don't know the rules of where it can be put after sentences, then I think the answer is:
It can be used as a replacement for です in any sentence and can be even used after verbs.

なら basically means "if". In almost every sense I think. can't be used directly after です. Can be used after verbs to mean "if you/he/she/it is verbing, then..."

For the last part yes, in this case must mean what you said. This is something that just takes time getting used to. Forget English and think Japanese. They omit pretty much everything obvious. That is, obvious in the Japanese language. I can tell you one helpful thing:

when は is used after someones name with a rising innotation, it can be interpreted as "what about X" or "as for X". It depends on context. In this case it must be clear John is looking for tanaka sensei, or is just wondering. So all that needs to be said is "Xは?" which would just mean "where is X?" But also can be used like this:

ジョン：元気ですか？田中先生? (how are you? Tanaka sensei?)
田中先生：元気です！(I'm fine!) etc etc
ジョン：アリスさんは？(how about you Alice?)
...
So yeah. Maybe that helps. Maybe it doesn't. Regardless, wait for a pro to come here, everything I said could be wrong for all I know.

 

[Angel Valis]

Please don't use anime as a measure of correct Japanese; a lot of anime characters purposefully have inconsistencies in their speech simply to make them stand out.

では and じゃ are sort of interchangeable as they mean the same thing, but じゃ is much more common in spoken Japanese (話し言葉), and では in written (書き言葉).

 

[Tsukemono San]

Thanks for the responses! I'm just starting to tackle grammar more seriously. I figured I should probably learn hiragana really well and a couple hundred Kanji for starters--and that is really helping, 'cause I can actually read the grammar exercises in 日本語 now (yay!)--I just can't always understand them, lol.

Everyone always says that Japanese is all backwards, but that's not entirely correct, is it... It seems like it's just super duper different compared to Germanic languages.. I'll try to compare the two less often. I think sometimes English translations trip me up 'cause they try to translate it to be all smooth and nice sounding in English, when sometimes there's no grammatically smooth way to communicate all that same information without adding or subtracting something..

有難うございます! I'm sure I'll be posting again soon, asking more questions about things I thought I understood!

P.S. If anybody else has beginner's grammar advice, I'm all ears.

 

[Mike Cash]

I thought I understoof です. I feel kinda dumb now. .助けて!

Get yourself into a class or at least get a regular textbook to work from. Avoid the typical anime fan pitfall of reinventing the wheel when it comes to learning Japanese. This stuff has all been carefully and conveniently collected and collated for you and is available via your favorite online book seller.

 

[RickNZ]

You need to break the connection between English modal verbs and です in your mind. A good way to start is to avoid looking for direct literal translations, or rather to avoid thinking that because we express something with a modal verb in English then it must have come from the same thing being there in the Japanese version.

Develop a feel for how it is used; don't get distracted by the translation.

Yes x1000! This is the truest thing ever said about learning Japanese or just about any other language. The more you translate, the more you think "this means the same as that English word, excerpt for this bit, and that usage, and this other bit of grammar that works differently...", you get tied up in so many exceptions and complications that you're not doing yourself any good. And the more you relate things to English, the more you're tempted, even subconciously, to put Japanese sentences together according to the same logic as English. Since Japanese is about as different as you can possibly be from English, 90% of the time these English-based hunches will turn out to be wrong. Japanese has a logic to it, but it's not English logic. Much better to blank your mind of English and learn Japanese like it's the only language you know. Try to form a mental picture of what the word means and associate it directly with the sound/written form of the word in your mind. When I learn a new word, I like to do a google image search for it using the japanese writing, that helps me get an impression of what Japanese people mean by the word. I remember years ago watching the French in Action series, the creator of the show gave a good explanation of why they don't translate:

ﾂ"We don't use English. We don't translate. Why? Well, because French is not a translation of English. It is not English that has been coded into French. No, French is French. It is not a code of English. So you cannot just replace an English word with a French word. It does not really work. When French people says something in French it is not because they mean something in English, but they say it in French because they don't know better, or to show off, or out of perversity. When they say it, they mean something in French. So to know what a word means in French, you have to observe the circumstances in which it is used. That is the meaning of the word ﾂ― the circumstances in which it is used.ﾂ"

Very true!

 

[Mike Cash]

I thought I understoof です. I feel kinda dumb now. .助けて!

As I always say....in order to translate it, you have to understand it. And if you understand it, why translate it?

Translation is a special skill and one that should be developed if it is your goal to be a translator. Otherwise, I would suggest avoiding getting into what I consider a bad habit that does more to hold you back than to help you.

 

[LewiiG]

Please don't use anime as a measure of correct Japanese

It has been noted. Thanks. That です thing has been on my mind for a while. So that's why...
I haven't used it as an absolute method of checking. Some stuff is obviously just animized, but です after a verb didn't seem entirely out of place. Well next time I am told something by a pro I shall know not to let anime make me waver lol

 

[Zlarp]

Another thing I find interesting about です is that it's always at the end of a sentence. Therefore, it's not a verb in the same way other verbs are.

Edit: About translation - I think it's wrong not to learn translation just because one doesn't want to become a translator. I agree that it is a special skill and is not neccessary for language learning itself, but I do thinkmost learners of a language will at some point find themselves in a situation where they want to translate something. That's why I think it's a good thing to practice that as well at some point.

 

[DWolfs]

Another thing I find interesting about です is that it's always at the end of a sentence. Therefore, it's not a verb in the same way other verbs are.

I don't think this is correct. です can be at the start of a sentence as the adverb ですから for example (or at the end as well in spoken language). And in its non-politie form, it's often used in quotated sentences (面白い本だと思います). I'm sure there are other uses as well.

 

[Zlarp]

I don't think this is correct. です can be at the start of a sentence as the adverb ですから for example (or at the end as well in spoken language). And in its non-politie form, it's often used in quotated sentences (面白い本だと思います). I'm sure there are other uses as well.

I'm saying that です isn't a verb in the same way だ is. You can't say "面白い本ですと思います" - it has to stand at the end of the sentence - at least if used as a verb. ですから seems interesting as well... hmm... maybe it could be argued it's more of a set expression than a grammatical construct of です and から?

 

[DWolfs]

I think the opinion of a native speaker will make things clearest. :?

But I can say that ですから isn't always a fixed epression, for example:

今日は誕生日ですから、パーティに行こうと思います

から here is just the particle to add for giving a reason.

 

[Mike Cash]

It is a copula.

 

[Zlarp]

I think the opinion of a native speaker will make things clearest. :?

But I can say that ですから isn't always a fixed epression, for example:

今日は誕生日ですから、パーティに行こうと思います

から here is just the particle to add for giving a reason.

Rikaikun translates ですから as "(conj) so; therefore; (P)" です as "(aux, pol) polite copula in Japanese; (P)", and から as "(prt) from; since; ... ... ... ; (P)"

- which is why I'm interpreting it as more of a set expression.

 

[Macrobiotic]

Although every language is unique I encounter expressions in japanese I sometimes intuitively recognize as similar to swedish, other work better translated to english. When the translation comes intuitively and you don't have to think about it, translating in your head can actually help to create memory patterns and deepen your japanese ability. Having an "aha!" moment where you associate something intuitively to something else is gold for long term memory, the brain feasts on it and if you've had an aha-moment with something chances are you will remember that construction for life without effort and also being able to use it correctly like a native speaker would.
Forcefully trying to translate however I think should be avoided, unless it's something where you're really stuck and just can't get any feel for it what so ever, then a forced translation can at least help to give a hint as to what the general nature of the expression is.

One example where I associate a japanese expression to a swedish expression would be when describing being housed up indoors working on a fine summer (spring in Japan maybe) day (仕事をするのが)もったいないぐらい which has a very similar feel to the swedish expression "sa pass att det ar synd och skam" (to the extent it's sin and shame (to be working etc)". Both express that doing something is to an extent of sacrilege or waste and an almost literal translation is possible here while retaining every bit of nuance.

Just because languages are grammatically worlds apart doesn't mean expressions can't have the same mood. Making these associations will speed up the transition from grammar land to intuition land in the cases it's possible. Japanese are after all not aliens from Mars.

 

[eeky]

I'm saying that です isn't a verb in the same way だ is. You can't say "面白い本ですと思います" - it has to stand at the end of the sentence - at least if used as a verb.

Neither です nor だ are classified as true verbs AFAIK. They are forms of the copula (which corresponds to "is" in English "A is B"). です usually behaves as the polite version of だ, roughly analogously to the -ます form of a verb (though there some other differences and complexities). Generally speaking, polite verb forms are not used mid-sentence since the final verb is viewed as setting the "tone" of the sentence. If ～ですと思います is disallowed then I would guess ～ますと思います is disallowed too, so I would guess that what you mention is not really a special feature of だ/です. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Zlarp]

My reference is here: Polite Form and Verb Stems | Learn Japanese it starts under "です is not the same as だ" - this is basically why I made the point I made and I stand by it since the argument is quite convincing.

 

[eeky]

The things he is talking about probably come under my "usually" and "other differences and complexities" caveats. The opinion that it is incorrect to consider です as a polite form of だ at all seems dubious to me. Certainly it is introduced that way in several books that I have. Could a native speaker comment on this?

 

[Toritoribe]

It's neccesary to diffrenciate the two です; a copula and a suffix. です attached to i-adjectives is the latter. It doesn't conjugate, doesn't have any tense, doesn't determine affirmative or negative. It only gives a polite tone, and is not interchangeable with だ.
e.g.
高いです。
高くないです。
高かったです。
高くなかったです。

Tae Kim is probably talking about this です.

 

[eeky]

So Toritoribe, would you agree that, other than some special cases such as the one you mention, it generally makes sense to consider です to be the polite form of だ?

 

[Toritoribe]

As a copula, yes.

 

[eeky]

Good, that's a relief...!