Arab Revolutions

[Hezam]

Same thing, but even less intelligent. Muslim politics are good in your view, other religions bad. Hypocrite.
It's not mistakes that lead to misunderstanding, it's your distorted views.

If you were the president of the U.S What would you do with the Middle East ?

Bush is literally a stupid person. He didn't know there was a difference between Sunnis and Shiites. He didn't declare a crusade. He didn't know what he was talking about. I think he was a terrible leader and a terrible person, but you're wrong if that's why you think he was bad.

Then Why the heck did Americans elected him ? why voting for a person like him ? How did he come to the White house ?

As for Zionists... jeez, really. It's joke, thinking that a cabal of Jewish people want to rule the world for their kingdom. It's so clownish. Not even worth explaining to you, since you'll have another pile of conspiracies to explain it away. You'll see what you want to see, and you have personal problems with Jewish people, so you'll always see them as the problem.

The Zionism and Judaism are not same dude, The problem is not Judaism ! How many times should i say it ?
And seriously i'm still confused why can't people inside the U.S see the situation as people outside the U.S do ?
Maybe you should come to the M.E and take a close look.

 

[nahadef]

I'm not American and have never lived in America, dude.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"If you were the president of the U.S What would you do with the Middle East ?"

I doubt it's your intent, but this question seems to presume that the Middle East belongs to the US, to do something with.

What I'd do in the Middle East if I were president is quit meddling there, except for supporting those nations that are our allies in world affairs.

I'm angry that Bush misled us into invading Iraq, and angry that the US sends $3 billion per year in aid to Pakistan, a country that betrayed us by sheltering bin Laden and other terrorists.

And I'm angry that oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia don't pay the entire cost of their regional self-defense.

As for why Americans elected Bush in the first place, all I can say is. . . we didn't. A majority of US voters voted for his opponent, Al Gore. Bush ended up winning due to intricacies of our electoral college system, and a US Supreme Court ruling that denied Florida a reasonable opportunity to confirm its vote count.

In effect, Bush was appointed president by our Supreme Court. And not the entire court, but by 5-4 vote, with the five justices having been appointed by conservative Republican administrations.

 

[Hezam]

I'm not American and have never lived in America, dude.

If i may ask where are you from ?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

There are times Roland, when I wonder how we got to hold such different opinions on certain topics, because I have to give you a big like for that latest post. A few quibblings:

I doubt it's your intent, but this question seems to presume that the Middle East belongs to the US, to do something with.

I think his point was probably just that America has more power to meddle in the M.E., much more, and uses it often, rather than America having any sort of actual right to do it.

and angry that the US sends $3 billion per year in aid to Pakistan, a country that betrayed us by sheltering bin Laden and other terrorists.

As much as I would also like to cut Pakistan off (and Israel too) just imagine some of Pakistan's nukes finding their way out of Pakistan or in the hands of the Taliban. With the Taliban in control in the Swat valley, this is becoming a real possibility. If we don't support Pakistan, the Devil we know, we could wind up dealing with the Devil we don't know.

Especially all your points about how "we" did not elect Bush are very much appreciated and agreed with, as are your critiques of his choices.

 

[Hezam]

I hate when i can't explain my point because of the language difference.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Why don't you try anyway, Hezam? Maybe we can help interpret it, and I don't think anyone would make fun of your English.

If they do, I'll demand that they demonstrate their Arabic.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I am with Roland. All of our ideological differences aside, there are many of us here who will put down anyone trying to "win" an argument by pointing out grammatical errors and such.

We can't promise some fool might try, but know that many of us will quickly support you in such a situation.

 

[noyhauser]

I wanted to say [ Extremist Zionists ] instead of [ Religious extremists ], My bad english cases so many freakin mistakes that lead to misunderstanding. Sorry..

noyhauser, Can you please explain to me some points from your own view :
- The European American absolute commitment to support Israel ( even if it means to sacrifice their interests ).
- the European American Wars in the Muslim world ( Bush declared a crusade Literally ).
- The Zionist Lobby in the U.S ( Congress for example ).
- the Western position from Muslims ( especially the American gov position ).

Why do I need to explain myself again when we've had about a dozen discussions over the past two years on those topic? The whole intention of my original post is to point out that every one of those discussions ended because you refused to admit that you were wrong; usually by just refusing to post, or by ignoring all the evidence in front of you and claiming that I was wrong. This has nothing to do with your grammar or not being able to express yourself. We all understand you quite clearly. Rather the problem is your understanding of our arguments.

The best evidence of your lack of understanding is that you continue to raise these ridiculous, racist and often vile theories about the world. We've discredited them over and over again and yet you're still here claiming that its some zionist conspiracy and its all America's fault. Its ignorant, and it will only serve to hurt your country and its people, not help it in the future.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I'm not sure I've ever seen a single case of someone having their mind changed because of someone else's argument on an internet forum.

I've also heard Hezam's claims and hatred of Israel and have argued against them. I've been hoping he might come up with something more than bigotry, and if he has something new to say on that subject or another, I'd like to hear it. His views seem to me typical maybe of the average Arab's, and I find it incomprehensible and would like to understand it better.

If there's any rational argument that might convince them to reconsider coexistence with Israel, and peace in their region, I'd like to find it. I'm tired of watching my country be the dog wagged by the tail.

 

[Hezam]

First of all, I would never do suck stupid thing like trying to win ( Win !! *laughs* ) a discussion because of my english !!! Many members here know my english level, i had a very big misunderstanding in the past and i remember when i apologized to one of the greatest members in JREF for making a stupid comment that has nothing to do with the topic.

Second, i'm going to reply to some posts before i explain my point,

nahadef, before you call me Hypocrite again you should know that religious government doesn't matter to me as long as that gov do not declare wars on another people/nation.
We in the middle east want a government that works for us not the U.S or any other nation, BUT not a government that wage wars for resources !!!!

noyhauser, If you don't want to explain anything anymore please do Not lie about me, I did Not say that all the problems in the ME are all because of the U.S !!! the roots of the ME problems started before the US or Soviet union become the most powerful nations.
And the evidence that your talking about is 99 percent from the government desk, And my evidence is from the field and the people, and the two will never meet.

you continue to raise these ridiculous, racist and often vile theories about the world. We've discredited them

You are talking just like the Assad or Mubarak !!!
This way [ dictators way ] of talking is horrible, i mean you should think before posting like that !

i don't remember saying the word "conspiracy" not even once since i joined the forums !

If you are wondering why we hate the US government ( NOT THE PEOPLE ) then look at the world that we are living in :

U.S Military bases + Air Craft + Navy etc in the middle east and west Asia.

Surrounded by all kind of weapons including nuclear weapons and this map is not all bases...
Starting from Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea, Egypt ( during mubarak ), Palestine ( jewish occupation that has over 400 nuclear warheads ), Jordan ( the dictator king ), Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan , and now Yemen, including the bases in the map above !!!
IS it not conspiracy in your opinion ?????????????

 

[noyhauser]

noyhauser, If you don't want to explain anything anymore please do Not lie about me, I did Not say that all the problems in the ME are all because of the U.S !!! the roots of the ME problems started before the US or Soviet union become the most powerful nations.
And the evidence that your talking about is 99 percent from the government desk, And my evidence is from the field and the people, and the two will never meet.

Actually I've met many people from the "field" and been to some of the places as well. That's why I know when you have zero credibility/knoweldge on a topic because you've never been there yourself or researched it comprehensively. In some cases, I even know the history of the myth or propaganda you're repeating to me... like about Jews controlling everything.

You are talking just like the Assad or Mubarak !!!
This way [ dictators way ] of talking is horrible, i mean you should think before posting like that !

i don't remember saying the word "conspiracy" not even once since i joined the forums !

Oh really?

What do you think about Arab people ??

I choose jews because they are the most rich people in the US,they control the coutry,the media,the companies,factories,even the formal decisions...

Right. Who's talking like Assad or Mubarak now?

 

[Hezam]

Actually I've met many people from the "field" and been to some of the places as well. That's why I know when you have zero credibility/knoweldge on a topic because you've never been there yourself or researched it comprehensively. In some cases, I even know the history of the myth or propaganda you're repeating to me... like about Jews controlling everything.

You have reached a serious level of fabrication, What places that you been to ? behind the NATO tanks ? or the Israeli military ?
And for the jewish thing, not only people know about it but also dogs and cats in the streets.

What do you think about Arab people ??


Right. Who's talking like Assad or Mubarak now?

Where is the freakin word " conspiracy " ?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I can understand about the military bases. I wouldn't want foreign military bases on my land either. So I've made a bit of progress toward understanding here.

Frankly, I wish my country didn't have military bases all over the planet. Costs US taxpayers too much, for one thing. Makes it too tempting for our government to go meddling in others' affairs, for another.

Honestly, I don't see why these other countries just don't tell us to leave. They'd have my support, if they do so.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I'm not sure I've ever seen a single case of someone having their mind changed because of someone else's argument on an internet forum.

It happens more than people let on. Unfortunately, people get bogged down in their personal connections both on and off the forum, and are afraid to admit changes of mind lest they isolate themselves from others. If any of the Muslims/Arabs/ Middle-Easterners here changed their minds about gay marriage, Israel, or such contentious topics in their circles,they won't say anything just because of how their fellows here might react (there can be no more despised enemy than one's own brother). And quadruple that if anyone they know in the real world is reading. All you can do is watch as one of them posts less aggressively, then stops posting about something altogether, then flip a coin on whether he changed is mind or not.

I am not bogged down by personal connections. I have changed my mind about a lot things and I have admitted it. I have thanked people for opening my eyes.

I predict in 10 years time, some discussions here will have changed your mind Roland, but we may not be here to find out then!

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"All you can do is watch as one of them posts less aggressively, then stops posting about something altogether, then flip a coin on whether he changed is mind or not."

I assure you, that would not be a safe bet for YOU to make.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I assure you, that would not be a safe bet for YOU to make.

I am not sure what you mean. If all my caveats are satisfied I think there is a good chance a mind has been changed. Never said anything about making a bet for the change, and I would never bet on a coin toss.

But just because someone has changed their mind about something does not mean they will risk opening up about it to the people around them.

For example, if you suddenly decided that widespread availability of child porn prevented future child sexual abuse (just suppose) you would not shout it from the rooftops. You would be ostracized and criticized severely for it in most circles and no one would come rushing to your defense. That is about the level of tolerance a Middle-Easterner could expect if they suddenly became tolerant of Israel, though neither opinion is really all that wild or unreasonable. Emotions rule these debates. They are taboo and you can expect about as much fair and rational thought as you would get for trying to explain to primitive islanders that the volcano does not erupt because their Tiki God is angry.

If one of those islanders realized you were correct, and the Tiki Gods were silly things, he would keep mum about it. He has quite a lot more to lose than fighting his fellow villagers and family over the fact would ever gain him.

 

[Hezam]

Honestly, I don't see why these other countries just don't tell us to leave. They'd have my support, if they do so.

They are thieves and they rely on the US power to protect them from their people, Why would they ask the US to leave ?
And btw, It makes me feel sad that the american people pay tax to support the bases and wars, the US gov forces the american people to share the murder whether they want or not.
I believe that there is a big part of the american people don't want wars or anything that could harm another people, and i truly understand that it's not their choice to choose peace or war, But i hope someday we share love and respect with the american people when they get rid of the bad government.

 

[noyhauser]

You have reached a serious level of fabrication, What places that you been to ? behind the NATO tanks ? or the Israeli military ?

I won't divulge where I've been because I guard my privacy on here, though I've been to the Middle East and have quite a few friends who are just normal people. One of my closest friends are from the KSA, and he's a pretty "normal" guy. My writings and views are shaped by the interactions I've had with them. What you don't realize is that I know that what you're saying is a common view among arabs... because I try to understand what people's viewpoints are. That's precisely why I can accept that the Western Military presence in the middle east does not help our image. I don't think Western policy is ideal and I don't think its been very good in the past. I try to understand where it comes from, and how it interacts with people in the middle east and beyond. Being accurate is essential for my job... so I try to be as honest as possible. Arab scholars have peer reviewed my work and thought it was good, so I can't be too wrong.

In general, I don't assume what people think, I try to find out about it as best I can. The difference between you and I is that you don't try to learn about other views or change your viewpoint. Hezam, you talk about things you know NOTHING about, yet in the face of evidence you refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong or even reconsider your points.

Being stubborn is one thing... I deal with that every day. However what I do not tolerate well is the ignorant racism YOU believe in, and the utter hypocrite you are.

YOU want respect for your religion and culture. Yet in almost the same breadth, YOU say some of the most racist and ignorant comments about Jews. Its complete and utter anti-semitism, which is best represented by what you just said.

And for the jewish thing, not only people know about it but also dogs and cats in the streets.

Right. Its repugnant and childish. You wonder why there is a tendency for people to disrespect you? Its because you have so little respect yourself. The fact that you believe Jews control the world to be true illustrates just how closed minded you are, and why I really fear for the future of your countries.

Where is the freakin word " conspiracy " ?

Stating that a group jews control everything and use that control to implement their anti-arab agenda is a conspiracy... actually its the utter definition of the term.

 

[Hezam]

I won't divulge where I've been because I guard my privacy on here,

hmm...privacy !

though I've been to the Middle East and have quite a few friends who are just normal people. One of my closest friends are from the KSA, and he's a pretty "normal" guy.

pick poor country >.<

My writings and views are shaped by the interactions I've had with them.

I seriously doubt that.

What you don't realize is that I know that what you're saying is a common view among arabs... because I try to understand what people's viewpoints are. That's precisely why I can accept that the Western Military presence in the middle east does not help our image.

Of course, No one wants other nations to occupy his nation or to control it.

I don't think Western policy is ideal and I don't think its been very good in the past. I try to understand where it comes from, and how it interacts with people in the middle east and beyond. Being accurate is essential for my job... so I try to be as honest as possible.

Can you please post your big image about where it comes from and how it interacts with people here ? for one last time if you don't mind.

Arab scholars have peer reviewed my work and thought it was good, so I can't be too wrong.

I want to review it...i really do.

In general, I don't assume what people think, I try to find out about it as best I can.

good i like this line.

The difference between you and I is that you don't try to learn about other views or change your viewpoint.

This is absolutely wrong, Let me say it to all people in JREF, this forum, The people whom i discuss things with them have changed many MANY things in my mind and my way of thinking, i OWE this forum and his staff,members because they enlighten me, i saw the people from their inside and their honest hearts, That's why i only post in JREF, I'm not interested in any other forums, whatever their purpose, I love this forums, I will not leave this forum unless i get kicked or i died.

Hezam, you talk about things you know NOTHING about, yet in the face of evidence you refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong or even reconsider your points.

If someone else thinks so please let me know, because i know my people and my situation more than anyone else in a far place do, I live here, i witnessed what's going on around me, And i know what is good for my own place.

Being stubborn is one thing... I deal with that every day. However what I do not tolerate well is the ignorant racism YOU believe in, and the utter hypocrite you are.

I won't call you in any of what you called me, But i strongly believe that if you meet me, your lines above will disappear from your head.

YOU want respect for your religion and culture. Yet in almost the same breadth, YOU say some of the most racist and ignorant comments about Jews. Its complete and utter anti-semitism, which is best represented by what you just said.

I said Jewish control the media and economy in the US, where is the racism in that ?
And who said that i'm against jewish ? i'm against Lobbies that use their power to harm other people, Whether they are Muslims or Christians or Jewish or any other group.
There is ZERO racism, It has nothing to do with Racism !

Right. Its repugnant and childish. You wonder why there is a tendency for people to disrespect you? Its because you have so little respect yourself.

It's sad to hear this from an " Advisor " ....

The fact that you believe Jews control the world to be true illustrates just how closed minded you are, and why I really fear for the future of your countries.

I will make a new post about the Jewish control just to see if you can prove how wrong i am.

Stating that a group jews control everything and use that control to implement their anti-arab agenda is a conspiracy... actually its the utter definition of the term.

There was always a strong group that held control on others in all parts of history.

 

[alecgraham]

Well this has gotten interesting.
I've always thought that Morsy should go, but I didn't know that he would.
One million Egyptian protestors can't be wrong, and congrats to the military for waiting until there was a geniune protest of that size before taking action, i.e. for not making it a coup. Well done!

 

[Hezam]

Morsy should go yes but how ? not by breaking law, Only by elections.
Sadly the military didn't wait more to make the dirty move, i'm not saying that Morsy was 100% right but he did some big mistakes and Egyptians should make him go by [ Elections ].
i didn't want Muslim Brotherhood to rule but i respect the elections.
Congratulations destroying the first democratic elections in Arab world, Now i have no doubts that democracy is forbidden in Arab nations, For the first time since 1400 years ago a christian president rule Egypt by force.

Democracy huh?

 

[alecgraham]

It is frustrating, for sure.

i'm not saying that Morsy was 100% right but he did some big mistakes and Egyptians should make him go by [ Elections ].

I think the problem with that is that as soon as Morsy was elected, he began taking away functions such as elections. Of course the main problem was that the Muslim Brotherhood failed to put bread on the shelves, and that's what got 1,000,000 angry people in Tahrir Square.
I think the military was the only group that could dislodge him.

 

[alecgraham]

{deleted by alecgraham}

 

[Hezam]

"Terrorism" will increase rapidly, this is what i expect, It seems like it's impossible for muslims to create their own nation with all those enemies, So the easiest and only way to go is revenge, this is at least what normal person in the middle east think of.