Guns and civilization

[RolandtheHeadless]

What happened in Columbus, Ohio that was so terrible? Other than my being born there, I mean? lol

I seem to recall hearing of incidents in Japan where people went crazy and mowed down people with knives

 

[Revenant]

Columbine High, my mistake. Uh huh, but were you to want to kill as many people as possible, would you go with a knife or a gun? Obviously the gun has a longer range, and just pulling the trigger twice you can take out two people five feet away.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

If I wanted to kill a bunch of people, I'd get in my car and look for a crowded street. Since there are some crazy people out there, maybe we should ban cars. It's interesting how some people want to ban something if they don't use it themselves.

My niece was attending Columbine High when that shooting occurred. My brother and his wife were among the anxious parents waiting outside. They don't own any guns, but don't want to ban them either. They know there are too many other ways to commit multiple murders, if someone really wants to.

 

[Pachipro]

FIGHTING BACK
Woman 2, thugs 0 after home invasion
Oklahoma break-in turns deadly when 'victim' pulls gun and fire

Our European friends may find this story of interest, especially the ads on the page.

The fact remains, guns have been a part of our culture for more than 236 years and nothing short of a massive government takeover or complete ban on guns will ever put an end to it which was why the amendment was put in there to begin with. It is rare that an innocent citizen gets killed with a gun from an unknown assailant, but it does happen. Most of the murders with guns are committed by criminals against other criminals or against people whom the victim already knows. However, you can not escape the fact that we have one of the highest murder rate in the civilized world when Europeans own a large number of firearms also. I believe it has more to do with culture and education than anything else.

According to a 2003 report titled Americans Own Largest Number of Guns In The World:

The Swiss study focused on legal gun ownership among ordinary citizens, excluding military personnel and police officers. It said what the study revealed about Europe debunked the belief that Europeans are disarmed and do not privately hold a large stock of guns.

It said 80 per cent of the estimated 84 million firearms in Europe are in civilian hands, with Finland leading with 39 guns for every 100 citizens, followed by Norway with 36 guns, Sweden with 24 guns and Denmark with 18 guns.

But the United States, which the study estimates has between 83 and 96 guns for every 100 people, still has far more guns per person than Europe, where the survey estimates there are 17.4 guns for every 100 people.

The study said Americans are the most armed in the world, followed by Finns and Yememis.

It is quite rare that your average armed citizen commits a crime with a firearm and, even if they had their arms taken away from them, the criminals will always find a way of getting them regardless of cost because being armed means having power. I believe I read somewhere that when personal possession of firearms was banned in Australia, the crime rate went up. In the US the crime rate is the lowest in those few cities that make it a law that all citizens be armed.

Crime Up Down Under. Since Australia's Gun Ban, Armed Robberies Increase 45%

In Australia since the gun ban:

Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:

Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Assaults are up 8.6 percent

Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent

In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent

In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily

There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly

 

[Tsuyoiko]

If I gave you a gun Tsuyoiko, apart from turning it in no doubt, what would your first reaction be? It certainly wouldn't make you lean more towards homicidal/hurtful thoughts. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, although I will admit guns can make it easier.

While simply owning a gun won't turn an honest person into a murderer, surely it will make them more likely to kill someone in certain situations. Burglars here don't usually have guns, and neither do homeowners. If a burglar is discovered by a homeowner they usually flee the scene. If either one of them has a gun, the outcome is much more likely to be that someone ends up dead, even if the homeowner is a law-abiding citizen.

There is a direct correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths:

Correlation doesn't necessarily entail causation, so of course we can't jump to the simple conclusion that gun ownership causes gun-related deaths. But we still have to admit the correlation. I repeat, in 2004 there were 78 gun-related homicides in the UK, compared to almost 13,000 in the US. That statistic ought to scare the crap out of everyone.

 

[Revenant]

If I wanted to kill a bunch of people, I'd get in my car and look for a crowded street. Since there are some crazy people out there, maybe we should ban cars. It's interesting how some people want to ban something if they don't use it themselves.

Look to Tsuyoiko's example. Got a gun and you're put in a bit of danger, the likelihood that you'll pull that trigger is high. Second, crazy people aren't always content with the idea of running random people over with a car, some of them have their victims chosen out, and cars aren't their weapon of choice when walking into a building where their chosen victims congregate. Third, guns are just so much easier to hide or get rid of. No gun means that much less evidence against them. Kind of hard to hide a car after you've run over a person or two.

This is all forgetting that there's a reason guns are the chosen weapon for a lot of battles around the world. They're not ditching the guns in favor of cars now are they?

 

[Half-n-Half]

Tsuyoiko,

I freely admit the facts and figures show a correlation of gun ownership and rates for gun-related deaths, and America certainly has one of the highest. But that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is this:

That statistic ought to scare the crap out of everyone.

Perhaps it's just because I've lived here my whole life, or perhaps it is because I'm a naive 20 year old, but it doesn't scare me. And unless you are the burglar in your example, what do you have to worry about? For you to suggest that everyone ought to feel a certain way when you've grown up in a completely different culture, or that it is frightening enough for someone to be completely turned off from visiting America is just odd in my view.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Perhaps it's just because I've lived here my whole life, or perhaps it is because I'm a naive 20 year old, but it doesn't scare me. And unless you are the burglar in your example, what do you have to worry about? For you to suggest that everyone ought to feel a certain way when you've grown up in a completely different culture, or that it is frightening enough for someone to be completely turned off from visiting America is just odd in my view.

I guess it's at least partially because we've grown up in different cultures that our views on this are so different. It's incomprehensible to me that the idea of your neighbour owning a gun doesn't scare you, but I guess since they likely do and it never affected you, it doesn't bother you. It bothers me enough to be one of the things that put me off visiting, and I doubt I'm the only person who feels that strongly, although I admit I'm probably in a small minority - hell, I'm somewhat scared of cars

 

[Mycernius]

I'll clear something up first. One I am not for banning guns. I have used them in the past and I used to go clay pigeon shooting, but I am in favour of gun control and that is what the US needs. Something else that many might not be aware of, guns are not banned in the UK. Unlike the US fully automatic guns are 100% legal. The difference here is the level of control. Since Dunblaine the permission to own a handgun has shfted up the power ladder. You used to need the piece of paper from the Chief Constable, now you need it from the Home Secretary. Shotguns and rifles are still covered by the police. Also the buying of guns is restricted and are not sold in sports shops, as I saw in Seattle, but in specialist retailers.

I would also like to point out that I own four weapons that are far more deadlier than a handgun and I am quite proficient in them. You do not need a licence for them and are not age restricted. The weapons? Four bows; a Samick recurve, a Sythian short bow, a longbow and a Japanese bow. The reason people don't go postal with these is because they need a level of skill to use. Face it, a gun is an idiots weapon and why crinimals like to use them. In five minutes you can learn to load, point and shoot a gun and probably hit what you want.

 

[Half-n-Half]

I guess it's at least partially because we've grown up in different cultures that our views on this are so different. It's incomprehensible to me that the idea of your neighbour owning a gun doesn't scare you, but I guess since they likely do and it never affected you, it doesn't bother you. It bothers me enough to be one of the things that put me off visiting, and I doubt I'm the only person who feels that strongly, although I admit I'm probably in a small minority - hell, I'm somewhat scared of cars

I suppose since it never has affected me it doesn't bother me. Maybe if my neighbor all of a sudden went whacko and decided to shoot up the neighborhood, I'd develop a paranoia for guns. My old neighbor did own guns, partly because he was a deputy sheriff. I don't know if my current neighbors own any guns. But if they did, I wouldn't really be worried. Perhaps it is just a cultural thing.