Do you like KEIGO? (Honorific speech)

[MTR]

What I don't like about KEIGO is:
1. Discrimination based on age, rank, etc
2. You can't even talk properly without invading privacy. (such as asking age, job, etc)
3. Some KEIGO (specifically KENJOGO) are downright rude, such as 愚妻(my stupid wife), 豚児(my pig son) etc.
Do you like KEIGO?

 

[Elizabeth]

Not being a native speaker, I don't get a special thrill every time I encounter it if that's what you mean.

And I get confused with honorific/humble form usages. Like wondering this week at reservation time why if o- and go- are honorific prefixes (actually humble).... is it the customer as well as management side to use "goyoyaku" ??? I've never seen it applied that way for actions taken by the speaker and the members of the speaker's group.


But alas foreigners all might take small solace in one fact: Japanese also study keigo by reading books because they don't know how to use the honorific form when they are interviewed by a prospective employer.

 

[Putrefaction]

I'm a first year student, so right now, I like keigo.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Keigo gives me warm fuzzies.

 

[Emoni]

Hate Keigo for the reasons given above by the OP. Seems ok when you first are exposed to it, but when you really get into it, it's pretty much feudal retardation of a language.

I don't ever want anyone to feel they have to use Keigo with me. Culture or not, I want to speak to people on a person to person to basis without the need to feel superior or make another forced to feel inferior.

 

[Ben Bullock]

3. Some KEIGO (specifically KENJOGO) are downright rude, such as 愚妻(my stupid wife), 豚児(my pig son) etc.
Do you like KEIGO?

Hmm, has anyone actually used those words since the end of the Edo period ?

 

[Elizabeth]

What I don't like about KEIGO is:
1. Discrimination based on age, rank, etc
2. You can't even talk properly without invading privacy. (such as asking age, job, etc)

To raise up who you are talking to with the honorific form, and then minimize your own actions with kenjogo is discrimination against whom ? Yourself and friends ? To exchange cards or the equivalent before a business opportunity is an invasion of privacy ?


There are reasons to think it is ridiculously complex in practice. But keigo may be a minefield and is impolite only for those who can't speak it.


P.S. : You left off "teineigo." ;-)

 

[FrustratedDave]

Hmm, has anyone actually used those words since the end of the Edo period?

Yes, " 愚妻" is still used with enough frequency to be considered a word that people still use today, especially within the middle aged to older generation.

I suppose someone out of touch with Japanese might think that it has not been used since the "Edo period".

Keigo is necessary, as is the other forms speech. Comming from an English speaking background I can see where the disdain for it may come from though.

 

[Elizabeth]

豚児 is also more like my "foolish" son (and there is one for daughter also...). I've since read Japanese on blogs as saying they aren't familiar with the term which makes me think it lacks common usage today. Probably post-dating Edo, though.

 

[AJBryant]

THere is a wonderful quotation from Robert Heinlein:

'Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.'

Keigo is part of Japanese. Get used to it.

 

[Ben Bullock]

豚児 is also more like my "foolish" son (and there is one for daughter also...). I've since read Japanese on blogs as saying they aren't familiar with the term which makes me think it lacks common usage today. Probably post-dating Edo, though.

I can do better than blogs. Shock, horror: I know actual Japanese people who don't know the words "tonji" or "gusai". It seems a lot of native speakers are no match for the clever people on web forums.
But, I have no idea when these terms fell into disuse. It's just a turn of phrase, like saying "Has anyone in Yorkshire worn wooden clogs since the Crimean War?" Bringing up "tonji" and "gusai" as part of one's objections to using keigo in modern Japanese is a bit like saying you don't want to visit London because of the "pea-soupers": these words are not part of the modern language.

 

[Ben Bullock]

Keigo is part of Japanese. Get used to it.

You can get used to it but it's not just foreigners who have trouble with keigo.
A while ago (I've told this story before) I was given some instructions by a young Japanese man, a member of a gym's staff, and he said to me "質問あれば、スタッフの方にお聞きしてください" .

 

[FrustratedDave]

I can do better than blogs. Shock, horror: I know actual Japanese people who don't know the words "tonji" or "gusai". It seems a lot of native speakers are no match for the clever people on web forums.
But, I have no idea when these terms fell into disuse. It's just a turn of phrase, like saying "Has anyone in Yorkshire worn wooden clogs since the Crimean War?" Bringing up "tonji" and "gusai" as part of one's objections to using keigo in modern Japanese is a bit like saying you don't want to visit London because of the "pea-soupers": these words are not part of the modern language.

You can get used to it but it's not just foreigners who have trouble with keigo.
A while ago (I've told this story before) I was given some instructions by a young Japanese man, a member of a gym's staff, and he said to me "質問あれば、スタッフの方にお聞きしてください" .

Way to make a case. On one hand you ridicule with your witty remarks about how even "native speakers" have not heard the words "tonji" or "gusai", but the clever forum people have in your first post above, but then in the next quote you give proof that "native speakers" can't even use basic keigo in your local gym. Way to go about proving your point about how and what keigo is still used today... Especially by people who actually know how to speak it, not a person who works at your "local" gym who most likely has not had any substantial formal training on how to treat a customer.

So it does seem that some foriegners who have to teach their "native" speaking Japanese staff how to use keigo may actually know more than your average Japanese who has not yet been taught how to use keigo. Oh the irony...

Yes shock horror, as you pointed out yourself some (most) "native speakers" do know how to use keigo correctly. I suppose if you were anyway involved in the business world you might know that, but as it stands your extensive personal experience seems to be enough.

I invite a "native speaker" who has had training in regards to keigo to comment. Yes , thats right, most "native speakers" are not brought up in a house hold useing keigo daily, believe it or not it does have to be taught, just like mathematics. (just in case you didn't know that)

Oh. and BTW I was refering to "gusai" for those who don't bother to read.

 

[Putrefaction]

Yes , thats right, most "native speakers" are not brought up in a house hold useing keigo daily, believe it or not it does have to be taught, just like mathematics. (just in case you didn't know that)

Can you just clarify that sentence really quickly? I underlined the part where it became confusing for me.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Can you just clarify that sentence really quickly? I underlined the part where it became confusing for me.

No problem. I used Mathematics as an example, but you could insert anything into the same sentence that requires some type of schooling/training to be proficient at.

Just b/c Keigo is Japanese does not mean that all "native speakers" will be able to speak it b/c it is their language, it is a specialised form of speach that requires quite a lot schooling/training just like the fact that most people will not know how to perform calculus with out schooling even though they have basic mathematical skills. And ity does not stop there, Keigo is usless if you don't know how to treat a guest, such as seating postions, bowing rules and I could go on and on.

Basically what I am trying to say is that it is not something that everyone will automatically know b/c they are a "native speaker". So asking a "native speaker" if they have heard of certain word used in "keigo" to justify that it is not used any more is flawed, b/c they may not have had the necessary training needed to be knowledgable enough to comment.

But, now I have said that anyone can make up crap and say, "oh ,but this native speaker has been trained." The fact remains that among the Japanese population the older generation that uses "keigo" still utilise the word "gusai" in conversation today.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[AJBryant]

Dave, you make a good point.

Think of how many native speakers of English say "I had went" or "didn't do nothing" and so on. Being a native speaker doesn't mean you get it right. STUDYING it means you get it right. I've known many foreigners studying English who had a better grasp of English grammar -- though maybe not vocabulary -- than many people born and bred in my home town.

Think of the conventional image in the US of a guy who teaches PE or works in a gym. Do you expect hyper-correct and polite English from him? Why should one expect the same (mutatis mutandis) from a similar fellow in Japan?

 

[Ben Bullock]

Dave, you make a good point.

Yes, very good point. Congratulations.

Think of how many native speakers of English say "I had went" or "didn't do nothing" and so on. Being a native speaker doesn't mean you get it right. STUDYING it means you get it right. I've known many foreigners studying English who had a better grasp of English grammar -- though maybe not vocabulary -- than many people born and bred in my home town.

Sure - there are non-native speakers who speak very nice English, and native speakers who speak badly. But anyone who is conceited enough to think that he or she is one of those non-native speakers with a great grasp of the language is skating on paper-thin ice. I once worked with a Japanese man who claimed that his grasp of English grammar was greater than we native speakers. His English went something like this:

Now, we do this whole kind of stuff isn't it?

No kidding.

Think of the conventional image in the US of a guy who teaches PE or works in a gym. Do you expect hyper-correct and polite English from him? Why should one expect the same (mutatis mutandis) from a similar fellow in Japan?

A native speaker of English, even a poorly educated one, will rarely make a mistake with language basics like "the" and "a", past and present tense, or singular and plural. I wouldn't expect the gym guy to have any problem telling whether to use "wa" or "ga", or whether to use the "te form" of the verb. Whereas. getting your keigo entirely the wrong way round seems to be a common mistake even for native speakers.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Yes, very good point. Congratulations.

Do I sense a little hostility here?

Sure - there are non-native speakers who speak very nice English, and native speakers who speak badly. But anyone who is conceited enough to think that he or she is one of those non-native speakers with a great grasp of the language is skating on paper-thin ice. I once worked with a Japanese man who claimed that his grasp of English grammar was greater than native speakers. His English went something like this:

I agree completely, well with the fact that "anyone who is conceited enough to think that he or she is one of those non-native speakers with a great grasp of the language is skating on paper-thin ice". And that remark was obviously directed at me, however I have not implied that I have a complete grasp of this language. I really getting the feeling that we have case of "the kettle calling the pot black" here.

Being able to teach people about a certain aspect of a language does not automatically make you proficient in every area of that language and nor did I imply that in any way shape or form. Instead you keep making assumptions based on "your" own knowledge of the language and of people you have no idea about, especially their background and current situation. You have still have failed to recognise that "gusai" is still used quite a lot in the language today, is that too hard for you to admit? That you are wrong? I suppose it does when you have Japanese language site , b/c you would surely have maintain an image of knowing more about the Japanese language than "other" non native speakers. You can have that title, b/c I wouldn't dare assume that my Japanese language skills make me an authority on it.

A native speaker of English, even a poorly educated one, will rarely make a mistake with language basics like "the" and "a", past and present tense, or singular and plural. I wouldn't expect the gym guy to have any problem telling whether to use "wa" or "ga", or whether to use the "te form" of the verb. Whereas. getting your keigo entirely the wrong way round seems to be a common mistake even for native speakers.

Hence asking any "native speaker" if a certain word is still used in the language today as evidence that it is not , is in itself flawed. Is that too hard for you to understand?

 

[Putrefaction]

I hate to interject, but don't you guys use some form of Keigo while on a job interview or talking to someone you don't know (like you wouldn't use short forms).

 

[FrustratedDave]

I hate to interject, but don't you guys use some form of Keigo while on a job interview or talking to someone you don't know (like you wouldn't use short forms).

Most people will attempt to use keigo at a job interveiw, some successfully and some not and some people will use very little. (I interveiw usually about 5-7 people a month. I am talking about Japanese people BTW) It really depends on the persons age , background and of corse personality in situations like an interveiw.

I should add that any "non native " speakers should not worry too much in an interveiw, just use you "desu" and "masu" and you should be fine.

 

[Putrefaction]

I don't want to go off topic here, but...perhaps I am being too hard on myself; I wouldn't want that "foreigner's pass" upon myself, I am an equal competing for that job, aren't I?. I think it's a given not to use short forms during a job interview. Is it looked down upon if you attempt to, but fail to use keigo properly? If you look at my topic where I delved into the intro to keigo, I did not do well at all, but I would hope the effort counts?...but that's against the foreigner's pass, haha.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I don't want to go off topic here, but...perhaps I am being too hard on myself; I wouldn't want that "foreigner's pass" upon myself, I am an equal competing for that job, aren't I?. I think it's a given not to use short forms during a job interview. Is it looked down upon if you attempt to, but fail to use keigo properly? If you look at my topic where I delved into the intro to keigo, I did not do well at all, but I would hope the effort counts?...but that's against the foreigner's pass, haha.

Unfortunately , there is no getting around you being a forigner, you will deffinately get points for trying to use Keigo. But if that makes you hard to understand you may give the employer the impression that you know less about the language than you really do.

I guess what I am trying to say is that is you use your "desu" and "masu" and keep things simple there is less chance for a misunderstanding to arise, especially if you language ability is still limited. It really is a difficult thing to answer as it would depend on the interviewer as well.

 

[Ashikaga]

I believe that you should concentrate on mastering the basic/plain form first. As someone else has mentioned, there are many different levels of keigo. Knowing when to use which level/form of keigo can only come after "having lived in the language" for some time (IMHO).

If you are planning to go for a job interview anytime soon, just narrow down your focus to 丁寧語（Teineigo）, the polite speech (the kind they teach in your text books). If I were conducting the interview, I would much rather see someone who is polite and respectful while still being themselves than someone who is trying so hard to present her/himself as someone who s/he isn't by attempting to use advanced forms of keigo which they are obviously not at all comfortable in. I believe that your sincerity counts as much as, if not more than, being able to address your interviewer in perfect Keigo. Now, some jobs REQUIRE the ability to use Keigo correctly. Stay away from those jobs for now.

I personally think that someone using keigo (but not too well) in attempt to sound smart/sophisticated could make themselves appear even less so than they really are.

 

[Putrefaction]

Your opinions are extremely valuable, thank you!

 

[Elizabeth]

I believe that you should concentrate on mastering the basic/plain form first. As someone else has mentioned, there are many different levels of keigo. Knowing when to use which level/form of keigo can only come after "having lived in the language" for some time (IMHO).
If you are planning to go for a job interview anytime soon, just narrow down your focus to 丁寧語（Teineigo）, the polite speech (the kind they teach in your text books). If I were conducting the interview, I would much rather see someone who is polite and respectful while still being themselves than someone who is trying so hard to present her/himself as someone who s/he isn't by attempting to use advanced forms of keigo which they are obviously not at all comfortable in. I believe that your sincerity counts as much as, if not more than, being able to address your interviewer in perfect Keigo. Now, some jobs REQUIRE the ability to use Keigo correctly. Stay away from those jobs for now.
I personally think that someone using keigo (but not too well) in attempt to sound smart/sophisticated could make themselves appear even less so than they really are.

You could be a part-timer or register clerk -- the kids working convenience stores don't even try it, or do with mistakes. I realize keigo is much less established than in the past, but it's definitely necessary for professionals and anyone who works in a service type industry as there are still lots of times you MUST use it such as on the phone, or dealing with superiors/customers/clients.