起こさせられる can be shorten into 起こされる?

[jellofish]

According to wｈａｔ I have learned , る-verbs and verbs ended with す can't be shorten into される form.

食べさせられる can't be shorted into 食べされる
話させられる can't be shorted into 話される

However, I keep seeing people using 起こされる.
Shouldn't 起こす be treated same as 話す?

 

[Toritoribe]

There's no conjugation or contraction such like 食べされる, and 話させられる is not same to 話される.

食べる(dictionary form) --> 食べさせる(causative) --> 食べさせられる(causative passive)
食べる(dictionary form) --> 食べられる(potential/passive/honorific)

話す(dictionary form) --> 話させる(causative) --> 話させられる(causative passive)
(話[はな]させられる is not incorrect, but 話[はなし]をさせられる is far more commonly used.)
話す(dictionary form) --> 話される(passive/honorific)

起こす(dictionary form) --> 起こされる(passive/honorific)

 

[nice gaijin]

起こされる is the passive conjugation, "to be woken," I'm not sure what you mean by "shortening" conjugations...

 

[jellofish]

起こされる is the passive conjugation, "to be woken," I'm not sure what you mean by "shortening" conjugations...

I mean...

作る ----> 作らせられる (causative passive) -----> 作らされる (shorten form of causative passive)

話す ----> 話させられる (causative passive) -----> X 話さされる

 

[jellofish]

There's no conjugation or contraction such like 食べされる, and 話させられる is not same to 話される.
食べる(dictionary form) --> 食べさせる(causative) --> 食べさせられる(causative passive)
食べる(dictionary form) --> 食べられる(potential/passive/honorific)
話す(dictionary form) --> 話させる(causative) --> 話させられる(causative passive)
(話[はな]させられる is not incorrect, but 話[はなし]をさせられる is far more commonly used.)
話す(dictionary form) --> 話される(passive/honorific)
起こす(dictionary form) --> 起こされる(passive/honorific)

Thanks once again toribe

Now I see that is HONORIFIC

私はとりとりべさんのように日本語が上手くに成りたい

 

[Toritoribe]

I mean...
作る ----> 作らせられる (causative passive) -----> 作らされる (shorten form of causative passive)
話す ----> 話させられる (causative passive) -----> X 話さされる

Ah, I see. You were talking about another form of the causative passive like as "行かせられる vs 行かされる," "取らせられる vs 取らされる."Exactly, ichidan verb like 食べる generally doesn't take this form. Also, -す ending godan verbs like 話す are rarely abbreviated, too, since they have the same -させる ending causative forms.

食べる --> 食べさせる(causative) --> 食べさせられる(causative passive) 食べさされる？
足[た]す --> 足させる(causative) --> 足させられる(causative passive) 足さされる？

FYI, the causative passive forms can be used as the causative potential, because the causative form conjugates as an ichidan verb. (The potential form and the passive form are the same in ichidan verbs.) However, this abbreviation is occerred only on the causative passive.

母にニンジンを食べさせられた。
I was made to eat the carrots by my mother.

彼女だけが彼にニンジンを食べさせられる。
Only she can make him eat the carrots.

もっとお金があればお前を大学に行かせられる。(× もっとお金があればお前を大学に行かされる。)
If we have more money, we can let you go to collage.

買物に行かされた。
I was made to go shopping.

私はとりとりべさんのように日本語が上手くに成りたい

It should be either 日本語が上手[うま]くなりたい or 日本語が上手[じょうず]になりたい.

Thank you. But, uh, I'm a native Japanese...

 

[Elizabeth]

おこさせる Is this ever conversational in the context of accidentally waking s.o. up ? Because I always say something less dramatic using closer to 起こして....


起こしちゃいました？ Did I wake you ???

起こしてすみません
起こして悪いね。
起き上がらせちゃってごめん。Excuse me....

 

[Toritoribe]

おこさせる Is this ever conversational in the context of accidentally waking s.o. up ? Because I always say something less dramatic using closer to 起こして....

起こさせる(causative)
長女に言って、次女を起こさせた。

今朝の地震で起こされた。
I was woken by the earthquake in this morning.

In Japanese, the form like 今朝の地震が私を起こさせた isn't generally used in this context.

 

[jellofish]

私は今、短歌を作ってみている

It has to be 5-7-5-7-7

But I have trouble counting the numbers

おにごっこをした <--- is this sentence 7 or 8, i mean... do i consider the っ as one 音?

 

[Toritoribe]

私は今、短歌を作ってみている
It has to be 5-7-5-7-7
But I have trouble counting the numbers
おにごっこをした <--- is this sentence 7 or 8, i mean... do i consider the っ as one 音?

8. ごっこ is a three mora word. But youon like しゃ, しゅ, しょ are one mora in two kana, so しゃしん is three, not four.

 

[nice gaijin]

the sokuon (small tsu) does count as an extra mora. So does the ん, if you were to use it, so 気をつけて

 

[jellofish]

Also, does it make sense to end a sentence with を

お昼ごはんを
I omitted （食べる）

 

[Toritoribe]

totally depending on the context

コーヒーと紅茶、どっちにする？
Which do you like, coffee or tea?
コーヒーを（下さい）。
Coffee(, please).

 

[jellofish]

totally depending on the context
コーヒーと紅茶、どっちにする？
Which do you like, coffee or tea?
コーヒーを（下さい）。
Coffee(, please).

とりさん、今、ＰＭで作りたての短歌を見せます。
最後の文は悪いかどうか教えて下さい:?

 

[jellofish]

Thanks tori for the pm