checking....
- Thread starter Tsurugi
- Start date
- 22 Feb 2008
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1)
俺は自分がとても強いと知っている。
Ore wa jibun ga totemo tsuyoi to shitteiru.
Or, at least, you should use "wakatteiru" instead of "wakaru." "Ore wa totemo tsuyoi to wakaru" would mean "I'll realize something is so strong" or like that.
俺は自分がとても強いと知っている。
Ore wa jibun ga totemo tsuyoi to shitteiru.
Or, at least, you should use "wakatteiru" instead of "wakaru." "Ore wa totemo tsuyoi to wakaru" would mean "I'll realize something is so strong" or like that.
1)
Just like "I know I am strong" sounds better than "I understand I am strong"
わかっている( knowing something and not forgetting that) is better than わかる（capable of or have managed understanding something）.
But this sort of verb-form based implicit emphasis on different meanings of a word(Omg I can't find a word to explain) is very subtle and I think even some native speakers cannot tell what exactly are the difference between:They would just say sounds right or wrong but probably many can't tell why. So do not be too fussy about this maybe.
1. I know that (somebody) is very strong. Ore wa totemo tsuyoi to wakaruru.
Japanese language does not require to explicitly identify the agent of a conversation as a subject in every sentence, particularly if a given context explains it enough, but with the above example, it is wiser to identify whom you know to be strong.
おれは 俺がとても強いと わかっている。
Now we are repeating 俺 twice, being so musculine that the body's failing to feed the brain maybe.
oreha zibunnga totemo tuyoito wakatte iru ===> I know myself to be strong.
俺は自分がとても強いと解っている。
2)
I am dangerous opponent even when I lose. Ore wa maketemo abunai teki da.
Um, I cannot associate two concepts "being dangerous" and "to lose", maybe the person is to self-detonates upon losing so as to kill his/her opponent? Wow such a dangerous person indeed!!
But if you mean "I shall ever remain as your enemy to be feared not even if death claims me or you force me swear obedience blabla" sort of thing then,
ichido makete mo(conditional, even if i lose once) ore wa omae no(I am your ) kikenn na teki da(dangerous enemy).
一度負けても、俺はお前の危険な敵だ。 But on second thoughts, if losing once does not mater at all, then there is not point talking about losing at all...so there is something semantically unnatural and repetitive about the sentence.
maybe
お前にとって(To you)俺は最も危険な敵だ(I am the monst dangerous enemy)。たとえ何があったとしても。(whatever happens)
But yet, the enemy looks like such extraordinary attention seeker that he/she is almost appearing cute. I guess I do not know how to put it.
Anyway, I am trying to find a good web site for mutual language help if anyone knows good site pm me please...some how learning English section of this site is empty...
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
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- 135
So shitte iru is neutral in this case (referring to jibun no tsuyosa), but wakatte iru may be better? Or depending on the speaker ?
So shitte iru is neutral in this case (referring to jibun no tsuyosa), but wakatte iru may be better? Or depending on the speaker ?
Sorry, I do not understand what is meant by "neutral" because I only did short self study to learn terms for explaining Japanese grammars.
As to the difference betwen shitteiru and wakateiru
It goes beyond the super-facial meaning of the word but related concepts and some usages of the two words. I must agree that this might be a little controversial, people may have different opinions. However, as far as I can think of:
自分が強いと知っている。
Someone as a knowledge knowing that oneself to be strong, it might possibly slip out one his/her head but at least for the time being it is on his mind.
自分が強いと解っている
someone understands oneself to be strong, likely from some sort of experience, and he might even know how it affects people around etc.
Often the difference between 解っている 知っている is minimal and almost like synonym:
I bet English flame and fire maybe similar to this, but sometimes we see expression like below.
知ってはいたが、解ってはいなかった。
I knew it but I did not understand it. So naturally sometimes 解っているhits deeper understanding from experience (while most of the times two words are pretty much the same).
Well, I am a little drunken and starting to lose a track of what I am writing here but anyway, I would say it is generally right to use 解っている for knowledge derived from primary information(experience etc) and 知っている for secondary or tertiary information(something came from reading or having heard form another person) .
Probably not the absolute rule though, and there must be a few native Japanese speakers who do not quite think this way too.
Thank you for reading
After all we just have to read a lot of books and memorise and analyse examples to understand this sort of things I believe., which is pretty hard and so very slow that I think I need some help from somebody ToT
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
OK, inebriated or not, that's very helpful. Thanks ! Unfortunately I'm not right now.Sorry, I do not understand what is meant by "neutral" because I only did short self study to learn terms for explaining Japanese grammars.
As to the difference betwen shitteiru and wakateiru
It goes beyond the super-facial meaning of the word but related concepts and some usages of the two words. I must agree that this might be a little controversial, people may have different opinions. However, as far as I can think of:
自分が強いと知っている。
Someone as a knowledge knowing that oneself to be strong, it might possibly slip out one his/her head but at least for the time being it is on his mind.
自分が強いと解っている
someone understands oneself to be strong, likely from some sort of experience, and he might even know how it affects people around etc.
Often the difference between 解っている 知っている is minimal and almost like synonym:
I bet English flame and fire maybe similar to this, but sometimes we see expression like below.
知ってはいたが、解ってはいなかった。
I knew it but I did not understand it. So naturally sometimes 解っているhits deeper understanding from experience (while most of the times two words are pretty much the same).
Well, I am a little drunken and starting to lose a track of what I am writing here but anyway, I would say it is generally right to use 解っている for knowledge derived from primary information(experience etc) and 知っている for secondary or tertiary information(something came from reading or having heard form another person) .
Probably not the absolute rule though, and there must be a few native Japanese speakers who do not quite think this way too.
Thank you for reading
After all we just have to read a lot of books and memorise and analyse examples to understand this sort of things I believe., which is pretty hard and so very slow that I think I need some help from somebody ToT
Though I was thinking I could recognize the difference in context and understand 知っているas in the state of having found out or or having become acquainted with some objective 'standards' for what it means to be a strong person. Applying those to oneself as a mental process rather as opposed to an innate, intuitive understanding. It just didn't work in the negative: Jibun ga tsuyoi ka dou ka shiranai ??? makes me nervous.
But that is my thinking. So please enjoy your mystery from now
on, too!
> 「解った」・・・・・solve something like a mystery.
> understand an answer of the
> question. ???
OK, inebriated or not, that's very helpful. Thanks ! Unfortunately I'm not right now.
Though I was thinking I could recognize the difference in context and understand 知っているas in the state of having found out or or having become acquainted with some objective 'standards' for what it means to be a strong person. Applying those to oneself as a mental process rather as opposed to an innate, intuitive understanding. It just didn't work in the negative: Jibun ga tsuyoi ka dou ka shiranai ??? makes me nervous.
But that is my thinking. So please enjoy your mystery from now
on, too!
> 「解った」・・・・・solve something like a mystery.
> understand an answer of the
> question. ???
Hmmm, grrrr,
A word of warning : people who have plenty of things to learn yet maybe better avoid reading below because I am writing something about very intricate and maybe useless thing with only my intuition as basis.
Well this time I should start with the conclusion because I did not do a good job last time.
俺は自分が強いと知っている。
There is nothing wrong with this statement. In fact many native speakers won't even care or notice the difference between 解っている and 知っている in this context. Also there is a expression like 敵を知り己を知らば百戦危うからず
But in practice, 俺は自分が強いと解っている is used far more often than 知っている, because people feel it more natural without knowing the reason and maybe there is not a reason as a matter of fact.
To think of the explanation for the more frequent use of 俺は自分が強いと解っている、over 知っている、I feel it is because coming to understand or know that oneself to be strong is always tied with some sort of experience rather than from someone telling it to us or from reading books.
And because the knowledge of oneself being strong is always derived from personal experience, thus it is solved or understood by oneself, we tend to use 解っている over 知っている in this particular given context.
Another reason I can think of is because in the context where such statement as 俺は自分が強いと解っている is made, speaker may would like to emphasise the fact that one knows it for certain often:sometimes people say 知っているだけでは十分ない to say knowledge is inferior to experience or practice, so 解るsomewhat sounds stronger than 知っている。
( I think this is a fallacy because experiencing something often only shows one aspect of things.)
As to what you have wrote:
as in the state of having found out or or having become acquainted with some objective 'standards' for what it means to be a strong person.
I agree and your understanding is very good. In certain context 知っているis far more suitable than 解っている。
let us see examples because it is highly dependent on context and what is meant.
己を知る（理解する）事は大切ですよ。＝＝＝＞For there is this expression 敵を知り己を知らば百戦危うからず we can use 知る。but not much difference between the twol.
自分の強みも弱みもよく知って(理解して・解って)いる。負けようがない。==>This is as a result of studying oneself, 知っているmaybe better but like above not much difference
自分を知る（ 理解する）ために修行をしているのです。＝＝＝＝＞from 全知全能,
知る seems to hint something deeper than 理解 too. Probably this is what you mentioned.
To reach understanding of inner, innate and principal of oneself or to gain insight into true-self that simple experiencing or experimenting never allow oneself to reach. This 知るprobably was like a jargon to start with but now part of Japanese.
強さとは何かを知らず(理解せず)して、どうやって強くなるおつもりで？
じゃあ誰が強さって奴を一遍の疑いの余地もなく知っているって言えるんだ？
Same as above I guess.
お前自分が他の奴より強いって解って(知って)るのか？
解ってるさ。＝＝＞I think 解ってるhas stronger emphasis than 知っている。here because we can say 知ってるだけじゃ十分じゃない、解らなくちゃ。
What really troubling is that someone could say something like 解っててもだめです、知らなくては。in the same sense as 自分を知る. This comes down to subject specific definitions of a word or jargon or method of attracting people's attention: In English, means is a way of doing something but also is an average and nonsensical sentence mayamuse people .
自社の強みを理解する事はとても重要です。==>理解is refereed word because it sounds big , thorough and convincing.
俺は自分が強いってちゃんと解ってるんだよ。===>Encouraging one self because he/she doubts in oneself. 解っているsounds slightly stronger than 知っている。to me.
In conclusion it comes back to the start, it is very subtle and even the intention of writer and understanding of readers might be different sometimes.This is all because any language is in continuous drift and meanings of words always changing in slight degree. We have to provide a definition of a word in context when we are writing and we have to find one when we are reading or guess it from the common usage pattern.
The reasons I have wrote this sickeningly unreadable note is because:
1)academic people would not like to touch this(because too subtle and time consuming)
2)teachers often consider talking about things like this a wast of time, so learners who reached to certain degree of proficiency might not even have the chance to think about this while these things are pretty important to gain a mastery over any language.
3)And lastly I have not written in English for so long now...
Anyway, Thank you so much Elizabeth, for answering my question in Learing English section
p.s
It just didn't work in the negative: Jibun ga tsuyoi ka dou ka shiranai ???
It is fine,
君自分がお酒に強いって知ってる？
自分がお酒に強いかどうか？知らない。＝＝＞not interested or something like that. Without ? the sentence sounds so verbose..
p.p.s
But that is my thinking. So please enjoy your mystery from now
What do you mean by the mystery?
p.p.p.s
If you can give me some tips for improving my writing from reading the above that would be swell: I would not be able to fix all of them up at once so one or two is enough.
- 22 Feb 2008
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う～ん、「強いとわかっている」が「強いと知っている」より実際に遥かに頻繁に使われているかどうかは別にして、「知っている」「わかっている」の違いについては確かにおっしゃる通りなのかもしれませんが、そもそもの問題は例文がどの程度の「理解」を表しているかが一切不明、ということだと思うんですが。あと最初のポストで力点を置きたかったのは「わかる」はこの文脈では（少なくとも「知っている」「わかっている」よりも遥かに）使いにくいという点だったんですけど、わかりにくかったですかね。
一応付記：
文脈検証抜きの単純google検索結果
強いとわかっている：488件
強いと分かっている：536件
強いと知っている：834件
一応付記：
文脈検証抜きの単純google検索結果
強いとわかっている：488件
強いと分かっている：536件
強いと知っている：834件
Last edited:
う～ん、「強いとわかっている」が「強いと知っている 」より実際に遥かに頻繁に使われているかどうかは別に して、「知っている」「わかっている」の違いについて は確かにおっしゃる通りなのかもしれませんが、そもそ もの問題は例文がどの程度の「理解」を表しているかが 一切不明、ということだと思うんですが。あと最初のポ ストで力点を置きたかったのは「わかる」はこの文脈で は（少なくとも「知っている」「わかっている」よりも 遥かに）使いにくいという点だったんですけど、わかり にくかったですかね。
一応付記：
文脈検証抜きの単純google検索結果
強いとわかっている：488件
強いと知っている：834件
いえいえ、どちらかと言うと私の読解力と文章力の問題 でしょう。自分自身の肉体的な強さをagent に置いたあ ﾆきは"強いと解っている"の方が頻繁に使われているあ 謔､に思えるといったつもりだったのですが、曖昧すぎあ ﾜした。実際感覚に頼りすぎているので、私がズレていあ 驩ﾂ能性は否めません。
そもそも違いは恐ろしく曖昧ですから。まあだからこそ 楽しいのですが。
ただある表現の頻出を根拠に、特定の文脈またはagentあ 揩ﾂ文章でのその表現の使いやすさを考えるのは少しあ ・ｯなのではないかと思います。確かに全体の数は重要あ ﾅすが、偏りがあるときは平均値だけを見ていると困っあ ｽ事にもなります。
ところで、文脈の所で躓いてしまったのですが、文脈と いうのは意思の疎通を成り立たせるために必要な共通認 識で良いのでしょうか？英語がいつまで経ってものにな らないのに最近日本語の方がどんどん怪しくなってしま い、困ったものです。
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
I mean the time isn't available to read in depth, but thank you so much ! It looks like a hugely engaging explanation.
About the mystery...you seem to have a great affinity for the kanji 解っている to solve a problem, hit upon a solution, settlement to the riddle, etc. I couldn't get it to fit in the circumstances of tsuyoi. :?
この場合は、「解っている」という動詞がどういう意味で使われ
てるかわからないですね。。
「解る」と「分かる」という動詞のを区別するように何か規則があるの
でしょう？
分かる、判る、解る、別る などの漢字があるようですからね。
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- 22 Feb 2008
- 18,266
- 4,926
@GreenCat さん、
google検索については、おっしゃるとおりですね。特に サンプル数が数百というレベルではあまり意味はないで しょう。文字通り桁違いに偏りがある場合は少なくとも 何らかの傾向を表していると考えることも可能でしょう が。ちゃんとしたコーパスに当たるのが一番いいのでしょうが、時間的な問題 が。。。
もう一点、Elizabethさんのポスト読んで漢字表記分の 検索忘れてるのに気付いたので前のポストに加筆してお きました。
「文脈」に関して。最初の「文脈」は「用法」のほうが 適切かもしれません。OPさんの例文中で"know"が表して いる意味、という意味合いで使ったつもりなんですが。 後者は一般的な使われ方である英語のcontextと同様の 意味です。
ただ「別る」に関しては、「別れる」の古語形という使 われ方しかないでしょうね。
google検索については、おっしゃるとおりですね。特に サンプル数が数百というレベルではあまり意味はないで しょう。文字通り桁違いに偏りがある場合は少なくとも 何らかの傾向を表していると考えることも可能でしょう が。ちゃんとしたコーパスに当たるのが一番いいのでしょうが、時間的な問題 が。。。
もう一点、Elizabethさんのポスト読んで漢字表記分の 検索忘れてるのに気付いたので前のポストに加筆してお きました。
「文脈」に関して。最初の「文脈」は「用法」のほうが 適切かもしれません。OPさんの例文中で"know"が表して いる意味、という意味合いで使ったつもりなんですが。 後者は一般的な使われ方である英語のcontextと同様の 意味です。
一般論で言うと、戦後常用漢字が定められて以降「判る 」「解る」等の読み方が常用外になってしまったため、 すべてを「分かる/分る」で代用する傾向が強くなりました。だから実は分 類がすごく曖昧になってます。
ただ「別る」に関しては、「別れる」の古語形という使 われ方しかないでしょうね。@GreenCatさん、
google検索については、おっしゃるとおりですね。特にサンプル数が数百というレベルではあまり意味はないでしょう。文字通り桁違いに偏りがある場合は少なくとも何らかの傾向を表していると考えることも可能でしょうが。ちゃんとしたコーパスに当たるのが一番いいのでしょうが、時間的な問題が。。。
もう一点、Elizabethさんのポスト読んで漢字表記分の 検索忘れてるのに気付いたので前のポストに加筆しておきました。
「文脈」に関して。最初の「文脈」は「用法」のほうが適切かもしれません。OPさんの例文中で"know"が表している意味、という意味合いで使ったつもりなんですが。後者は一般的な使われ方である英語のcontextと同様の 意味です。
一般論で言うと、戦後常用漢字が定められて以降「判る」「解る」等の読み方が常用外になってしまったため、すべてを「分かる/分る」で代用する傾向が強くなりました。だから実は分類がすごく曖昧になってます。
一般論で言うと、戦後常用漢字が定められて以降「判る」「解る」等の読み方が常用外になってしまったため、すべてを「分かる/分る」で代用する傾向が強くなりました。だから実は分類がすごく曖昧になってます。
そうですね、というか私の場合すっかり "わかる"になってしまっています。正しい漢字の使い方という意味では Elizabeth さんの方がよくご存知でしょう。私より年配の方々や、より教養（きょうよう）のある人達では違うかもしれませんが、コンピューターの普及に伴う漢字離れも手伝って私のような人は増えているのではないかと思います。
