Bush's war on Iraq

[Al-Kindi]

I hate to threaten the foundation of our warm, new friendship, but can't go along with you all the way on the Jews. Yes, they do probably have disproportionate influence on our government and media. We do have a fair number of Jewish immigrants here, probably because they were relatively well-received compared to the treatment they got in Europe and elsewhere.
American people have a fair amount of sympathy for them because of the Holocaust (I do hope you're not a denier), and the Arab attacks in '68 and '71 probably didn't help either.
I don't know much about the history of Israel/Palestine, but understand there are competing historical claims, each of which have some validity. Certainly if individual Palestinians were deprived of their lands, they should somehow be compensated. And it seems to me the Israelis have committed some atrocities against them, possibly out of excessive zeal in defending themselves.
From an American perspective, it seems hard for us to understand why the two peoples can't coexist in the same nation. We have people of all ethnicites and faiths here. Yes, there is discrimination and even hate-crimes; but these are prohibited by law and punished by the authorities.
By the way, there is something I've long wondered about, which maybe you could shed some light on. Why don't other Arab nations provide more material assistance, shelter, and perhaps even a substitue homeland for their Palestinian brothers? My perception of your own country is that SA is quite rich from oil, so it certainly seems you have the means to do so.
The more cynical among us here say that other Arab nations don't help them because they want to keep the Palestinians in poverty and distress for political reasons, i.e., the end of Israel.

I suggest you study what is called the nakba, especially do some research about zionism and the likes of David ben gurion( who used south africa apartheid system as his basis) facism and extreme hypocrisy ruled and rules the land(s). the british mandat/un and unleashed israeli government made all these crimes against humanity possible.....when you study history (especially 1922 untill 1947) u will understand a lot more. the invaders(european zionist 'jews' and 'christians') including the first president called palestinians and other natives NIGGERS. and threated them like ****, this is all well documented. allmost a million people were kicked out the land(the first suicide bomber was a zionist in Jaffa). the palestinians(who are jews/muslim/christian and sects many never heard of) aka the Natives are the victims, if you have studied how things happened you will understand why there are so many militant groups like hamas etc. a lot of crazy things happened I could write ten pages about it(remember we are talkig about many decades ago, during the time africans were still victims of apartheid in america etc a lot of horrible things were at the order of the day).

now, they are still building the 680 km apartheid wall which the ICC in The Haque condemned and demanded that it should be stopped, 'palestinian and arab' Israeli's are 2end class citizens by israeli law, Palestine is controlled by Israel , they have violated hundreds of un resolutions etc. the things that are happening there today is really sick.

I live in the Netherlands here we have orginasations like 'ander joods geluid) which are jews who fight against zionism. zionism has got nothing to do with hebrews/jews. it's a Facist ideology.




I ask you what 'historical' claims the zionists have?

u know that palestinians/arabs/hebrews and everything around are the natives of the land? there is no such thing as a 'jewish' race my friend.(if that was the case then most muslims and christians are converted jews lol, how do you call the followers of jesus/issa) it is jews/muslims/christians(palestine) and all sects versus Zionist jews and christians.(Israel)
check out history: 'jews' descend from 'arabs' and basically are arabs(read something about Yemen's history) I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.


as long as zionism is taking seriously in Israeli politics there will be no peace....unless the 'world' wakes up and boycotts Israel like they did the afrikaners......believe me a lot of things will chage for the better once justice i done.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

The terms "liberals" and "conservatives" have no consistent or logical meaning here in the US. The former term is often used as an insult by those who imagine they're claiming some moral high ground by applying the second to themselves.

The terms don't have even tenuous meaning unless they're applied to specific categories of issues, e.g., "social liberals" or "fiscal conservatives."

But here the world stands on its head. The Republican Party of George Bush/John McCain were classically thought to be the fiscal conservatives. Yet, they've spent money, increased bureaucracy, and run us far, far further into debt than any administration previously. While the last Democratic administration (Clinton) left us balanced budgets. Go figure.

And classically, the "liberals" were those who favored individual civil rights, while "conservatives" were more in favor of order, security, and government authority.
That is, until "conservatives" discovered the importance of our Second Amendment (right to keep and bear arms), while shunning the rest of our Bill of Rights. As when Bush incarcerates anyone he deems an "enemy combatant" or "terrorist" indefiinitely without due process, any charges being filed, or access to a lawyer. (When he allows his minions to waterboard them he's just being a heartless barbarian. Not even a "conservative" at any point in our prior history would do this.) Somehow, those who brag about being "conservatives" here never seem to realize that if it can happen to someone else, it can happen to you.

So no, the words have no real meaning in the US. Unless you wish to insult those who disagree with you by calling them "liberals."

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Al-Kindi, every time I hear someone talk about Israel/Palestine it's long on rhetoric (e.g., "apartheid wall") and short on facts. Or maybe the facts are different for each side.

I'm a lawyer who works in the courtroom, and that happens to be the way it is for every case I've ever seen. So it wouldn't surprise me if it's also the case in the broader world. No one ever thinks he's in the wrong. Everyone always has a means to rationalize or justify his position.

It's very hard for us here in the US to know what to believe. The only thing I do know from years of experience is that it's a terrible waste for two sides to keep beating each other's brains out, without making every possible effort to compromise. This, in my experience, is certainly true of mere money. It has to be far more true when we're talking about human lives.

You don't have to tell me about discrimination against blacks and other "colored" people in my own country. I remember seeing "whites only" signs when I was a child. Our society is getting better, but bigotry still exists.

I suspect it exists wherever there is more than one group of humans. I also remember some of it, directed at myself, when I lived in Japan years ago.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

This war to wreak havoc and mayhem has its end in sight. By 2009 the troops will be out of urban areas and in U.S. bases, though they'll still be sticking around to train Iraq's own troops and probably won't be out until 2011. In other words, a good system of withdraw. Apparently it's been in negotiations for about ten months. I can only imagine that it would come at the end of Bush's term so that, if the Republicans won, their plan of withdraw is all set, but if the Dems won, well, they'd have to go with the Republican form of withdraw.

I'm sure those of you who inhabit absolute monarchies dominated by sharia aren't too keen on seeing a democratic state in Iraq capable of fending for itself, but hey, what the heck.

However, first, I must admit that I do not believe Bush is a good president, and feel that, although a good war, it was fought too late and prosecuted poorly in a number of ways. But the conduct of the insurgency is proof in the pudding. Yes, countless Iraqi civilians have been killed in the crossfire, but if we can pull this off, then there is hope. Ironically, I hear absolute silence from the liberal, anti-war left right now on the progress of the war.

For the record, some of former leftist (now labelled neocon) Christopher Hitchens:
Christopher Hitchens on Bill Maher regarding Bush.
Christopher Hitchens pwns George Galloway on Iraq War and Middle East
Hitchens on Iraq, Iran, and Mother Teresa (Fast forward about 1/3 through for Iraq).

Classicist and PhD in History, Victor Davis Hanson makes Bill Maher look like the empty-rhetoric wisecracking smartass he is in the face of cold, hard facts.

On Palestine/Israel

First, the Zionist Movement began in the 19th century by legally purchasing land for resettlement by the Jews. The territories they were purchasing were largely desert and wasteland areas that they gradually began to convert into arable gardens--something that had not been done since the Islamic powers retook the region from the Christians at the end of the Crusading period.

As the Second World War was drawing to a close, the Jews were looking to establish a homeland in South America, not the Levant, but the British government elected to carve off a portion of their empire (which they had won from the Ottomans during the First World War) to create a Jewish state.

The Palestinian ethnicity was created by this event. Before this, the inhabitants were simply Levantine Arabs and Transjordanians. There was never, historically speaking, a state called Palestine. The closest you get was the Transjordan during the Ottoman and British empires. Adverse to having an infidel power occupying holy territory, Islamic rhetoric developed the Palestinian ethnicity out of thin air. The Balifour Declaration was refused, which would have given the "Palestinians" most of the arable and useful territory while relegating the deserts to the Jews/Israelis. In 1946, the Arab world immediately declared war on the fledgeling nation, slaughtering Israeli civilians with artillery bombardments into the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem during the siege of the city.

Jews responded by developing a militaristic mindset of a country that is perpetually at war and perpetually under siege. After three unsuccessful attempts to destroy Israel and commit genocide on Israeli civilians, the Arab contingents of the Levant have created a ruthless Israeli democracy. The response--guerilla warfare and terrorism, has resulted in the camps that the Israelis have established. These camps are criminal, yes, that is true, but the Palestinians are treated much more humanely than they would the "infidels who must be driven into the sea." Add to this a culture that educates its children in the "holy task" of eradicating the only democratic state in the Middle East, and you have the seeds for a Jewish state being forced into genocide. I say forced because the Arabs throughout the Levant are determined to leave Israel little choice in the matter. It is a brilliant plan--sacrifice the Islamic inhabitants of Israel/Palestine in order to obtain a casus belli to eradicate a Jewish, secular democracy and establish sharia in its place. The end justifies the means. Allah be praised.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Interesting. But I suspect some of our former posters will contest that set of facts.

"Yes, countless Iraqi civilians have been killed in the crossfire, but if we can pull this off, then there is hope."

Perhaps -- for the survivors.

I don't know what to believe about Iraq these days. Unlike the reporters we had in the Viet Nam conflict, who had courage in the field and in reporting, our current media cares only about providing entertainment. Yes, news above all must be entertaining. So they're just entertainers, and how seriously can you take entertainers?

We have a president who won't let the public be shown dead bodies or flag-draped coffins or anything too disturbing. We don't know who or what to believe, so most Americans -- and I hate to say it -- have lost interest. We've let our brave people in uniform and their families shoulder the entire burden of this war.

I stopped believing Bush when he took advantage of 9/11 to go to Iraq. Everything he told us then proved false. Oh, except that Saddam was a ruthless dictator; we already knew that.

The administration now says they only waterboarded three prisoners, and oh yes, each of them provided crucial information. But why should we believe that? The only witnesses to these acts were the torturers, and who would believe torturers?

Maybe progress IS being made in Iraq. I certainly hope so, so that our young people can come home and we can leave them alone.

 

[Al-Kindi]

ignorance, blind hate and discrimination? anti-islam?

History is fables agreed upon, the ones who truly studied the history and remains objective knows my post was true. No this is not arrogance but simply the truth. why isnｴt anyone countering my arguments but are critising it with lies? just because the land never was called ｴpalestineｴ gave foreigners the right to kick out the natives of the land? the british kicked out the ottomanians with help of the palestinians and arabs and promised independence to them which they obviously did not give. the UN eventually ｴgaveｴ over half of the country to not even 10% of the population again, this is all well documented.

the facist arguments etc all have been well documented, the expulsion and abuse of the natives all have been wel documented, hell right now 2008 all they are still building ｴsettlementsｴ , arabs/palestinians living in Israel (even if they are jewish!) are second class citizens by Israeli Law. I donｴt understand how people can just look the other way and defend all of this.



seriously, I just think it all comes down to ignorancy, blind hate and discrimination. u guys might as well defend the afrikaners and what they did against the natives of south africa. screw Steve Biko right?

Go check out how David Ben Gurion and others talked about the natives, go check out what they called the orakel etc, ｴremovingｴ thousands of people were seen as an orakel......yes everything for the ｴgreater israelｴ (check out what he meant with that)


ｴwe must learn from the afrikaners mistakes(we) should not only be the landlords, we should also do the ｴsimpleｴ work ｴ

not my best Hebrew translation but check out zionist israel history, u guys really are haters if you do not acknowlegde their facist ideology and injustice they have done against the natives of the land aka palestinians aka muslims,christians and jews.

If I would say that Iｴm hebrew and arab would that change your close minded spirits and actually study the history instead of wikipedia or checking out some lame azz biased summaries on the internet.


mazzel tov and Thala!


Edit: denying that the Nakba is like denying the Shoah(holocaust), everything has been well documented, u people who defend the ones that caused the nakba are exactly like the ones who defended the bloody Nazi´s.

#think about that for a second.

 

[Yan]

If we want to fight terrorism, why should we attack Iraq? The terrorists are everywhere, not just in Iraq. After the 9/11 attacks, Bush took that opportunity to blame terrorists and to attack Iraq. At the beginning of the war, Bush thought that they had atomic weapons and in 2003 they realized that they didn't have any atomic weapon. You can see that Bush is a lyer. He's lying about Iraq and all he wants is their oil.
I think that Americans should vote for Obama. I don't know if he will be a good president or if he will change the situation but I think he's better than McCain. McCain is just a copy of Bush and he doesn't want to end Iraq war.
Obama said that he will try to bring troops home and he will try to end Iraq war. He also wants to spend money in green energy and in hospital. It is better to spend billions of dollars in that than in war.

 

[Capster78]

Most of the Americans that post in this thread have never expirienced the advance of dictatorship because untill Saddam, the world has prety much not seen communism or opression try to spread on any large scale. Most americans are comfortable in their homes thinking that the world is a rosey place and peace is the answer to all the worlds problems. However, there are still us americans that thru stories and history remember how communism and dictatorships spread across the world. WW1, WW2, Vietname war, Korean war.. If these advances were not stoped the world could be a different place.

It was obvious what Saddams intentions were. Regardless of the reasons to invade (WMD's, Nuclear weapons, Oil). The spread of dictatorship rule and communism must be stoped wherever it exists. The failure to do this could result in larger areas like North Korea, Vietname, Zimbabwae and China which pay little attention to human rights and more into its survival of the government and its hirearchy. The rest of the world has it easy becaise we are the only ones willing to stand up to it. If you wish to enjoy freedom but prevent it from others enjoying it then that is your own beliefs and your are entitled to them. I would love for the world to be peacefull but there will always exist, a man, who sees opertunity in opression. This will never alow peace to be completly attainable.

 

[vegitagojita]

McCain is not just like Bush. Just because they come from the same party does not mean that they are the same. I think that Bush made a poor decision to go to war with Iraq because he didn't have all the facts. The intelligence that was given to him was incomplete and therefore no serious action should have been taken.

As for pulling out of Iraq...it will be very tricky. Regardless of why we are there, we are there just the same. Maybe you should think of it as cleaning up a mess instead of winning a war. The mess was made by the Bush administration but cleaning up the mess is something that all Americans need to mindful of. You cannot simply pull out of a dangerous situation and leave the inhabitants, that have depended on the Americans for their safety, to just fend for themselves when there are still many supporters on an old regime out there that will use violence (against the innocent) to get their point across.

Obama comes off as arrogant as Bush does. He promotes all this change for the future without trying to fix things now. Alternative fuels and all of his Green initiatives are GREAT for the big picture but what about today. McCain will try and fix things ASAP by offshore drilling and etc.

 

[Al-Kindi]

Most of the Americans that post in this thread have never expirienced the advance of dictatorship because untill Saddam, the world has prety much not seen communism or opression try to spread on any large scale. Most americans are comfortable in their homes thinking that the world is a rosey place and peace is the answer to all the worlds problems. However, there are still us americans that thru stories and history remember how communism and dictatorships spread across the world. WW1, WW2, Vietname war, Korean war.. If these advances were not stoped the world could be a different place.
It was obvious what Saddams intentions were. Regardless of the reasons to invade (WMD's, Nuclear weapons, Oil). The spread of dictatorship rule and communism must be stoped wherever it exists. The failure to do this could result in larger areas like North Korea, Vietname, Zimbabwae and China which pay little attention to human rights and more into its survival of the government and its hirearchy. The rest of the world has it easy becaise we are the only ones willing to stand up to it. If you wish to enjoy freedom but prevent it from others enjoying it then that is your own beliefs and your are entitled to them. I would love for the world to be peacefull but there will always exist, a man, who sees opertunity in opression. This will never alow peace to be completly attainable.

dude, your government has been screwing up humanrights all the time...hell you also have been dealing with governments that **** up humanrights all the time(like S.Arabia, Israel etc)....besides didn't the US government actually sell certain things to saddam and supported him untill he went after kuwait?

what do you call Abu grhaib/Iraqi Jails etc, this entire invasion is a crime against humanity. please stop the hypocrisy, during the time the us was fighting against the nazi's people were still getting lynched beause of the facist apartheid system in the us.

Socialism is condemned in the states right? well guess what, here in Europa Socialist parties are extremely populair(from the Netherlands to Turkey) and actually run the parlement/country like Spain etc. the healthcare system Barack and Clinton are talking about is a stereotypical 'socialist' aspect.

people only c the 'evil' they want to c.

hypocrisy truly is the ruler of all.

 

[vegitagojita]

Obama and Hillary want to have a socialist government where BIG government takes care of everybody's needs and supports everybody by raising taxes to fund such programs. The American people cannot afford to have their taxes raised to do this.

The American Healthcare system although very expensive is one of the greatest in the world. We have the highest quality of care and the most advanced research. Do we as customers of the healthcare systmen pay for this? Yes, but government run healthcare will mean lower doctor salaries which will mean fewer doctors. People say that doctors make too much money. I say they should because honestly, who whould want to be payed a government salary and still have all of the stress and risks involved in being a physician. Not to mention the fact, that on average, a doctor needs about 10 years of post-secondary education just to practice medicine. There needs to be a large incetive to those who endure this, and that cannot be provided with government run healthcare.

This is just a one reason why socialism in America goes against everything that America stands for. I could go on and on but I won't.

 

[Al-Kindi]

If we want to fight terrorism, why should we attack Iraq? The terrorists are everywhere, not just in Iraq. After the 9/11 attacks, Bush took that opportunity to blame terrorists and to attack Iraq. At the beginning of the war, Bush thought that they had atomic weapons and in 2003 they realized that they didn't have any atomic weapon. You can see that Bush is a lyer. He's lying about Iraq and all he wants is their oil.
I think that Americans should vote for Obama. I don't know if he will be a good president or if he will change the situation but I think he's better than McCain. McCain is just a copy of Bush and he doesn't want to end Iraq war.
Obama said that he will try to bring troops home and he will try to end Iraq war. He also wants to spend money in green energy and in hospital. It is better to spend billions of dollars in that than in war.

the war on terror is just a bunch of bullcrap.

any individuel could blow up the dutch parlement(binnenhof) right now without sacrificing his life, there are hundreds of historical important buildings and other important infrastructural places all over Europe that people can blow up without ever getting caught or having to sacrifice their lifes for it, even if there was security it would




I stand by my argument that the world needs to do something about the Israel/Palestine conflict because that would solve a lot of problems world wide.

leave afganistan alone, there has been no peace since the russians invaded and the taliban emerged, now 20 years later canadian/dutch/american and other forces are still fighting and screwing up the natives and the land.

we are using the wrong methods, doing the wrong things. more understanding of eachother, basically more talk and way less action. people who defended their homes have been murdered and labeled terrorists

if we want to fight 'terrorism' we should acknowledge the 'terrorist' in ourselves and stop our terrorist activities in which 'we' participate instead of trying to talk them right and looking for excuses.

 

[Al-Kindi]

Obama and Hillary want to have a socialist government where BIG government takes care of everybody's needs and supports everybody by raising taxes to fund such programs. The American people cannot afford to have their taxes raised to do this.
The American Healthcare system although very expensive is one of the greatest in the world. We have the highest quality of care and the most advanced research. Do we as customers of the healthcare systmen pay for this? Yes, but government run healthcare will mean lower doctor salaries which will mean fewer doctors. People say that doctors make too much money. I say they should because honestly, who whould want to be payed a government salary and still have all of the stress and risks involved in being a physician. Not to mention the fact, that on average, a doctor needs about 10 years of post-secondary education just to practice medicine. There needs to be a large incetive to those who endure this, and that cannot be provided with government run healthcare.
This is just a one reason why socialism in America goes against everything that America stands for. I could go on and on but I won't.

I don't know about the US healthcare system obama etc want to introduce, but here in the netherlands doctors are getting payed extremely well(most of them have studied for 10 years), they are not paid by the government(this isn't commie style dude), insurance companies basically are running things the government tries to keep them in check. it's basically the same as in your country the difference is that every individuel can get quality doctors(u can also choose your own doctor etc no matter who poor you are) I believe it is the same in countries like Canada, Uk, France etc etc.

the main flaw I have with the healthcare system we have are the costs, I am a broke *** student and I have to pay for a lot of things a month and the monthly allmost a 100 euro health insurance really is breaking my balls, so I totally understand and co-sign your argument about it not being affordable for everyone because of rising taxes. seriously I am a phew months behind paying schedule. I am curious about how the dems think they can solve this because this problem is in every country with a similair healthcare system.

another flaw is that(well people never talk about it but I heard that it happens) is that certain hospitals make deals with certain insurance companies and will there for help people who are subscribed to that certain insurance company better(waiting lists etc etc)

'Socialism' is just a word, we could label many things in every society around the world socialist..it is condemned in the states because of the coldwar etc but just look at all the similair things in the uk and us, compare them and u will notice that what is called typical socialist over here is called different over there.

socialism already works in the us u simply call it different.

we have parties that call themselves the socialist democrats running the parlement here in the netherlands. liberal has a totally different meaning over here than in the us.

 

[vegitagojita]

I gree with you that the palestine/isreal conflict is the real problem here. The bigger problem is how to fix it. They have been fighting for thousands of years now. There doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Should a third party intervene (America)? I don't know, but something has to change because if just left alone it seems as though it will continue forever.

Both want the same land and both have legitimate claims to it. A holy war is the most terifying war because there is absolutley no fear of death. America does not stand a chance in fixing this problem because we do not have any way to relate to the motives of "terrorists". Coming between Isreal and Palestine just because America has Christian roots, which has Jewish roots, is not worth the effort. They need to stop choosing sides in an endless war.

 

[Anohito]

Some people evidently have difficulty remembering that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all so-called Abrahamic religions.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Socialism is condemned in the states right?"

Not all all. We have plenty of socialism here. We even have lots of socialism -- government bailouts, tax breaks, regulatory assistance -- for the rich.

It's just the word "socialsim" that is unpopular. We associate that word with Communism, you see, and we can't be honest enough with ourselves to say what kind of government we have implemented under both major political parties.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

why isn't anyone countering my arguments but are critising it with lies? just because the land never was called 'palestine' gave foreigners the right to kick out the natives of the land?

Umm... Yeah, I'll reiterate: The late 19th century Zionist movement purchased the land. Purchased. And the Balifour declaration parcelled the most worthless land to the Israelis, and the majority of the Arabs rejected it and started a war--started a war. And I cannot count how many times I've heard and read Palestinians and Arabs calling to drive the Israelis "into the sea." Who's kicking whom out? Last time I checked, there were plenty of Arab Israelis who were not second-class citizens, as well. I know one, in fact, personally, and he doesn't have a great deal of love for his fellow Muslims who want to drive him "into the sea" right along with the Jews that surround him.

seriously, I just think it all comes down to ignorancy, blind hate and discrimination.

You are right--on the part of many Arabs it does. And as I've said before, the Israelis don't hate blindly. Bus-bombings, Hezbollah border raids, these things have engendered feelings of hate in the Israeli population. They just didn't show up one day on the shores of Transjordan with guns, rape and pillage, and burn out the previous inhabitants, regardless of what you might say. There were, when the state was created, already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the region. So much for refuting arguments, you have failed to make a dent in any of my statements. I say that the Arab community has prompted Israel to build walls and create concentration camps. Indeed, these evil Jews are pumping water and electricity into Gaza and other Palestinian areas right now. Why? Because the Palestinians are too busy trying to decide how best to murder Jews on street corners, not how to develop industry and establish utilities.

As I've said before, had the Palestinians been successful, that entire region would be an arid desert the moment the blood of all the Jews had finished drying.

u guys might as well defend the afrikaners and what they did against the natives of south africa.

Facile analogy.

Edit: denying that the Nakba is like denying the Shoah(holocaust), everything has been well documented, u people who defend the ones that caused the nakba are exactly like the ones who defended the bloody Nazi´s.
#think about that for a second.

The day I see smoke stacks go up to burn bodies in the Levant is the day the Palestinians won--not the Israelis. Seriously, read some of your own side's rhetoric on this one and then come back to me. I have yet to see a photograph of a Palestinian at an Israeli settlement camp that looks like he's starving or on his way to the gas chamber.

now 20 years later canadian/dutch/american and other forces are still fighting and screwing up the natives and the land.

How can the land be screwed up if they were already killing each other? This should be status-quo. In addition, these guys get the added bonus of killing infidels! That garners them way more holiness-points than simply killing other Muslims.

basically more talk and way less action.

Dude, you are naive in ways I don't even know how to begin to elucidate. It is pretty hard to talk to someone who believes it is okay to "strike the head of the infidel from his shoulders." How can you negotiate with someone who believes he's going to be laying 72 nubile virgins for eternity if he dies in battle with you? He's little to lose and much to gain.

For that matter, you're going to suggest perhaps we should have negotiated with Hitler instead of went to war? Or perhaps ask the Japanese real nicely to stop killing civilians in Nanking. Hey, here's one for you! Maybe if the Romans had smiled more and talked a good game, that massive army of Visigoths would have just gone home instead of burning the city to the ground!

Talk without force behind it is empty. Period. That's why Europe will never again be a world power--ever since the Second World War, there has been such a refusal to consider military solutions, they've been incapable of thinking strategically. That's why Milosevic got away with murdering so many Muslims for so long--Europe is all bark, zero bite. Oh, but here come the big, swaggering American cowboys. Well, thanks to us cowboys, there are people in the former Yugoslavia that can still pray facing Mecca without getting shot.

we want to fight 'terrorism' we should acknowledge the 'terrorist' in ourselves and stop our terrorist activities in which 'we' participate instead of trying to talk them right and looking for excuses.

I've read a lot of mealy-mouthed empty rhetoric, but this takes the cake. Congratulations on getting the BS award. Acknowledge the terrorist in ourselves? Come on! Yes, the US has exported bombs to other countries (by dropping them) since 1941, but we've exported more tonnage in Levi's jeans, Aerocrombie & Fitch, and McDonalds hamburgers, and unless you consider the gastrointestinal effects of a Big Mac terrorism, than you are spouting idiocy, because the primary export (besides oil) that the Middle East is known for is suicide bombers and plane hijackers. The American Empire isn't fueled by bombing places, it's fueled by building fast-food restaurants and manufacturies for car-parts. We bomb places that could threaten our ability to buy CDs cheaply, not just because we feel like it. Yes, we are quite decadent in that regard, but if we were this great big imperialist power, and terrorism was this great excuse, there'd be way more American troops in Iraq right now, more curfews, and mosques would be getting blown up by Americans (not by fellow Muslims, as is the case) to build Southern Baptist churches.

the world has prety much not seen communism or opression try to spread on any large scale

I don't even know where to begin with here. Khmer Rouge? The Ukraine in the late '40s? Names like Stalin and Polpot ring a bell? Hungary? Prague? Czechoslovakia? Berlin Blockade? Korean and Vietnam Wars? Tiennamin Square? What the heck are you talking about? The world has known these things well before Saddam.

No, Americans have rarely experienced oppression--we've been pretty lucky so far in having established a country separated by oceans from the nearest people who would do us harm. Actually, plenty of Americans have--African-Americans, Lakota, Navajo, Cherokee, have experienced more than a fair share of genocide and oppression. I am, by far, no apologist on this one--it was wrong and it was done. No point in hiding it.

No, as Christopher Hitchens has pointed out numerous times, though, ever since World War II, everyone else has been happy enough to sit on their laurels and let these things continue. Rock and roll. As I've said before, let America become isolationist again.

You want to see a nuclear war in the Middle East? Tell Israel they are on their own. The moment jihad is declared (and it will be), the moment it looks like they will be "driven into the sea" and the "head of all the infidels shall be stricken from their shoulders" by the "righteous," they'll unleash their nuclear arsenal, guaranteed. Hell, I would. But hey, it's okay for Iran to wave their nuclear phallus around, so why shouldn't Israel, huh? Oh, wait, they're white, not brown. Oh, and they're Jews, too. It's only a time before California secedes from the Union and joins Israel at this point, too (this one is for you anti-Semitic conspiracists).

But hey, I'm not going to lie. There were plenty of reasons to invade Iraq. Some of them were real and worthwhile, but too late. Some of them were based on vested interests (not oil, because the oil there isn't filling American gas tanks, regardless of what you'd like to think), such as military contractors and government expenditure. Some were based on flimsy data and false intelligence (weapons of mass destruction). We should have finished the job in 1991, but we didn't. We cleaned up a mess by making an even bigger one, but now that we are busy trying to clean that mess up, we are taking flack for it. Alright, justified. But, as an Iraqi professor of history at a Californian university (and damn, his name escapes me, otherwise I'd link him) said to an anti-war demonstrator, "How will leaving Saddam in power promote the peace and security of the Iraqi people? It won't."

The real reason the news media isn't showing you what is going on in Iraq is because the bulk of the war is over. The troop surge worked. The Iraqi military is growing. The plans for withdrawal are laid out. The Iraq debate is, now, a moot point. We are leaving. A secular democratic government is being established. Hopefully it will last without our help. I'd like that. I personally believe that most of you would rather see millions more Iraqis die in the ashes of civil war than actually see the American project of creating an Iraqi democracy succeed. That way, you can feel justified in pointing fingers and saying how evil we are. What are you going to say if Iraq succeeds? "Those evil Americans! They invaded Iraq, and now... the Iraqis vote. ... But they are still evil Americans!"

I, personally, believe democracy is a good thing. And if Afghanistan can manage to go from tribal mayhem into a cantonment-based system like Switzerland was during the late Renaissance, I believe that would be a good thing, too.

And no, just for the record, I am not anti-Islam. I am, however, anti-post-Crusades-Islam--which Islam won, by-the-way. After the 16th century, Islam shut down, became inward-looking, abandoned science and learning. As an historian, this presents a magnificent mystery to research, but nonetheless, the mantle of science and philosophy passed from Islam to those backward barbarian Europeans (and at the time, they were barbarous, that's not me being facetious). Ever since, Muslim leaders and theologians have made great strides at blaming everyone else for the fact that they live in the desert and their own kings and sheiks get the oil money, rather than the people that live in mud-brick dwellings with no electricity or running water. And every victory they might win does little to deliver those modern amenities into the hands of the poverty-stricken.

Not all all. We have plenty of socialism here. We even have lots of socialism -- government bailouts, tax breaks, regulatory assistance -- for the rich.

You forget all the breaks that the poor and minorities get. However, those socialist handouts they recieve do little to actually improve their situation. Rather, it simply presents a facade of social welfare while preserving the status quo. Unfortunately, the middle class in America is what will truly suffer. Should they fail to become rich, they will find themselves gradually descending into poverty through inflation, debt, and dependency.

The bigger problem is how to fix it. They have been fighting for thousands of years now.

Bingo. That region has been a battleground since Qadesh. And anyone who wants to sit and cry about whose land is being stolen from whom can go sit on it, in my opinion. Everyone who lives there now took that land from someone else.

Case in point--the Palestinians are Arabs who live there and claim the Israelis are stealing the land. But Arabs didn't always live there. Oh no. Someone else lived there before they slaughtered them all, and those people slaughtered the previous inhabitants, and so on, going back to the Neolithic era. Cry me a river.

 

[Someone4373]

Please, don't get into that discussion os Israel vs Palestine. Forget how it started, say about how they can fix it. It's because people there never forget the past that they are fighting for a thousand years. It's more difficult to forgive your enemy and to cooperate for a better future than just spew hate for a thousand year more to come. There will never be a right or wrong side, we all know that. It's futile to keep looking for reasons or persons to blame.

Back on Bush, Roland, it is good to see Americans like you. Not that there aren't many like you, but you don't step back and dicuss thing which I normally only see being discussed in Europe. Also, I don't get it why all conservative people are always so arrogant and aggresive (even here in Brazil). I guess it's because they work too much, which causes them stress, which leads to extremism, aggressiveness, etc.

The USA whould have more than two big parties, it's bad having to vote on the lesser evil. Extremists could vote in an almost-fascist party and leftists could vote in socialist parties. Also, Americans conservatives should not worry about Obama winning. Our right-conservative party is named "Democrats", and was inspired in the ideologies of that in USA. The richest and most powerful country in the world will never see anything close to the left governing the country, in my opinion (because it is the richest and most powerful).

Also, I don't know how the elections work in the US, but here, voting in McCain would be equal to voting in Bush. You see, if one gets elected, a whole bunch of the party also enters the government/stay in the same position as they were in the previous. So here you must think about the party.

And please, the war on terror was in Afhganistan. Bush went to Iraq searching for mass destructions weapons, not to bring democracy. You can't just go there and say what people will do, that as extremist as an anti-democratic government. But we know that the reason was not just Oil, but to stop any kind of Asian league, consistig of many countries opposing to the US. After the war on Iraq, many Arab countries became the US allies and gave up on joining regional blocks.

Obama comes off as arrogant as Bush does. He promotes all this change for the future without trying to fix things now. Alternative fuels and all of his Green initiatives are GREAT for the big picture but what about today. McCain will try and fix things ASAP by offshore drilling and etc.

Supllying all the needs will just make your country more dependable on it. You can get a huge amount of oil at one place, but when it ends, the country will still be dependable, but the oil stocks in the whole world will be low, while all other goverments will be using renewable energy, putting the US in a late position. If I recall correctly, Denmark and Germany have 20% of their energy supplied by renewable ones.

Also, if I remember correctly again, McCain was defending renewable and nuclear energies, so it's not like he will just concenctrate on Oil (that is, if he isn't a liar like Bush).

Anyway, I don't plan to discuss any of this any further, since some people are really aggressive and childish here, not able of discussing in a respectful and mature manner. Even on Japan-related topics that I read, there's always two people flaming on minor details/silly things. So, goodbye of this thread.

 

[vegitagojita]

Also, I don't know how the elections work in the US, but here, voting in McCain would be equal to voting in Bush. You see, if one gets elected, a whole bunch of the party also enters the government/stay in the same position as they were in the previous. So here you must think about the party.

I know that you are saying goodnye to this thread but I must comment. If all of the polls are correct then the Democrats will rule the house and therefor the only thing that McCain can do is try and block some of their initiatives. If Obama is President then the Democrats can pretty much do what they want because the Republicans won't have enough votes to do anything about it.

 

[Al-Kindi]

Umm... Yeah, I'll reiterate: The late 19th century Zionist movement purchased the land. Purchased. And the Balifour declaration parcelled the most worthless land to the Israelis, and the majority of the Arabs rejected it and started a war--started a war. And I cannot count how many times I've heard and read Palestinians and Arabs calling to drive the Israelis "into the sea." Who's kicking whom out? Last time I checked, there were plenty of Arab Israelis who were not second-class citizens, as well. I know one, in fact, personally, and he doesn't have a great deal of love for his fellow Muslims who want to drive him "into the sea" right along with the Jews that surround him.

now I understand what Finkelstein(an american israeli) meant...the zionists are not really the problem, it are the ones that defend and support them that are the problem.

funny how you totally ignore the facism points I made about zionism,david ben gurion etc. the international court in the haque, the dozens and dozens of amnsety international reports etc.tell me why did you ignored that? you acknowledge that the zionist movement exists but you ignore the fact that they saw the natives as niggers and did everything to get them out(which afcourse is all documented just look up some quotes and statistisks etc, like the british made)?

lol, from who did they purchase land? the ottomanians? the british? arabs? ｴtheyｴ bought only a very small piece of land of ｴarabｴ landowners, hell they were ｴpurchasingｴ land up untill 1947, when they owned 8 or 9% of the land, the brits gave the mandat to the un and the un ｴgaveｴ over 50 of the land to not even 10% of the people. why do you seem to ignore that? why are you even defending those facist fools? their racist ideas and speeches and actions are all well documented(even that some of them actually donated money to hitler) from the first Israeli president David ben gurion to the ｴfoundersｴ, millions of jews worldwide condemn zionism because of their facist ideology but you manage to somehow totally ignore their facist ways and even talk about arabs hating them more etc. So yeah you respond with pure ignorancy/blindhate and or discrimination. you even dare to talk about ´worthless land´ etc acting like it doesn´t matter that the un gave them the land of the natives to foreigners because the land the gave was ´wothless´ hell what do you know about morocco and the western sahara conflict? just because the land seems worthless to you doesn´t mean anything dude. I mean come on.

so let me get this straight: you somehow find it ｴstrangeｴ that ｴarabsｴ aka palestinians and arabs( I hope you know the difference) started the war after they were first screwed over by the british (tell me what do you know about what the british call the Riots from 1922 untill 1947) allmost 1000.000 people were kicked out(nakba) and then the un just gave over half of the land to a fraction of the population....what is a matter with you man? you expected the palestinians and arabs to just say okay after all of that? they didnｴt start this mess.


You are right--on the part of many Arabs it does. And as I've said before, the Israelis don't hate blindly. Bus-bombings, Hezbollah border raids, these things have engendered feelings of hate in the Israeli population. They just didn't show up one day on the shores of Transjordan with guns, rape and pillage, and burn out the previous inhabitants, regardless of what you might say.

lol, again read about zionism and the first president david ben gurion they called them niggers, they did everything to get them out, called the violent removal of thousands and orakel and blessing. they acted like the natives did not exist, again this is all well documented(like the fact that the first suicide bomber was a zionist who bombed Jaffa), I donｴt know why you choose to ignore those facts, but seriously you are really ignorant regarding this subject no disrespect it simply is the truth.

Hezbollah didnｴt exist in 1922 or 1947 dude, even hamas and fatah didnｴt exist back then, extremism(like in iraq and afganistan after russian and american invasion) is an direct response to foreign invaders....all make it easy for you: where does the KKK come from?

if you would understand the history u would know why there are such groups like hezbollah and hamas

There were, when the state was created, already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the region.

first of all jews always have lived there(palestinians/arabs etc the non-zionist jews), how come you ignore HOW the state was created again? second: check every statistik the british made during their mandat about the population (the natives were still over 90% of the population) hell the it is well known that the un gave over half of the land to not even 10% of the population why do you continue to ignore such things? these are all FACTS. get over it.


So much for refuting arguments, you have failed to make a dent in any of my statements. I say that the Arab community has prompted Israel to build walls and create concentration camps. Indeed, these evil Jews are pumping water and electricity into Gaza and other Palestinian areas right now.

what arguments? do you call ignoring 90% of the facts arguments? u have no sense of humanity if you feel that the israeliｴs actions are the palestinians and arabians fault.

Why? Because the Palestinians are too busy trying to decide how best to murder Jews on street corners, not how to develop industry and establish utilities.

indeed they really do donｴt they? their all murdering psychopaths.

go look something up about a place in palestine controlled by Israel called Hebron.

As I've said before, had the Palestinians been successful, that entire region would be an arid desert the moment the blood of all the Jews had finished drying.

thats why there are still some jews living in palestine right(the mayor of Rammalah is a greek christian women) seriously your arguments are loaded with bullcrap homie.

The day I see smoke stacks go up to burn bodies in the Levant is the day the Palestinians won--not the Israelis. Seriously, read some of your own side's rhetoric on this one and then come back to me. I have yet to see a photograph of a Palestinian at an Israeli settlement camp that looks like he's starving or on his way to the gas chamber.

WOW are you comparing the suffering of jews during world war 2 with suffering from jews/muslims and christians during the nakba? seriously why even compare such terrible events? do you even realize what you just typed?

have a little sense of humanity man.
Dude, you are naive in ways I don't even know how to begin to elucidate. It is pretty hard to talk to someone who believes it is okay to "strike the head of the infidel from his shoulders." How can you negotiate with someone who believes he's going to be laying 72 nubile virgins for eternity if he dies in battle with you? He's little to lose and much to gain.
For that matter, you're going to suggest perhaps we should have negotiated with Hitler instead of went to war? Or perhaps ask the Japanese real nicely to stop killing civilians in Nanking. Hey, here's one for you! Maybe if the Romans had smiled more and talked a good game, that massive army of Visigoths would have just gone home instead of burning the city to the ground!
Talk without force behind it is empty. Period. That's why Europe will never again be a world power--ever since the Second World War, there has been such a refusal to consider military solutions, they've been incapable of thinking strategically. That's why Milosevic got away with murdering so many Muslims for so long--Europe is all bark, zero bite. Oh, but here come the big, swaggering American cowboys. Well, thanks to us cowboys, there are people in the former Yugoslavia that can still pray facing Mecca without getting shot.

Yes you are absolutely right dude.

you are obviously brainwashed thinking in extreme stereotypes, no sense of reality at all.....donｴt know why I even bother.


I've read a lot of mealy-mouthed empty rhetoric, but this takes the cake. Congratulations on getting the BS award. Acknowledge the terrorist in ourselves? Come on! Yes, the US has exported bombs to other countries (by dropping them) since 1941, but we've exported more tonnage in Levi's jeans, Aerocrombie & Fitch, and McDonalds hamburgers, and unless you consider the gastrointestinal effects of a Big Mac terrorism, than you are spouting idiocy, because the primary export (besides oil) that the Middle East is known for is suicide bombers and plane hijackers. The American Empire isn't fueled by bombing places, it's fueled by building fast-food restaurants and manufacturies for car-parts. We bomb places that could threaten our ability to buy CDs cheaply, not just because we feel like it. Yes, we are quite decadent in that regard, but if we were this great big imperialist power, and terrorism was this great excuse, there'd be way more American troops in Iraq right now, more curfews, and mosques would be getting blown up by Americans (not by fellow Muslims, as is the case) to build Southern Baptist churches.

wait are you actually comparing import and export alias big macs and levi with A-bombs and cluster bombs? this is not the first sick allusion you made and I will probably not be the last. I guess you feel that the Iraq war was justified in someway and that the thousands of deaths and millions of refugees were all worth it. I guess you believe that there wasnｴt another way to handle such things right.

your what they call ｴbeyond helpｴ...


or not?

I get the impression that you are a soldier stationed in South Korea, so I can understand your biased totally unrealistic view of the world.(just like I understand hezbollah and hamas and the zionists)


how do you feel about the jews that all condemn zionism and the state of israel? how do you feel about Nelson mandela, Jimmy carter, desmond tutu etc etc?

Go watch a documentary called occupation 101...

may the gods be with you my confused friend.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

"i hope All American poeple like you Roland."
Unfortunately, they're not. My people are deeply divided these days, more so than I ever remember. Some are still angry about 9/11 and do not have the intelligence or education to discriminate between those who attacked us and those who did not. I would not care to be a Muslim in some parts of the US right now.
Many still believe we're fighting a "war on terror" in Iraq. They are still in denial about all the Bush lies. Others are more concerned about the current state of our economy.
Bush has only about a 30 percent approval rating these days, though. His approval, and support for the Iraq war, would be much lower I think, if not for the Bush scheme (successful) to postpone payment for the Iraq war by pushing the cost off on future generations. Instead of making the unpopular move of raising taxes to pay for it as we go, Bush has been borrowing the money against our future.
The lives lost, both Iraqi and US, are the worst of it of course. Then there's the waterboarding and other medieval barbaric treatment of prisoners. The whole thing sickens me. I never thought my country would come to this. I can only hope we get a new president that returns to our American principles and ideals.

Well on the plus side are least there are American's like you who do realize all of this .
The stereotypical image of the war-mongering arrogant and ignorant American has seriously damaged America in the eyes of many foreigners/countries around the world, the sooner and the more Americans there are who understand whats really going on and are ready to openly admit things like Bush being a terrible president and the mistakes in the war in Iraq, the better and the sooner America can rebuild its image and respect in the face of the world.

I feel though that the only real way that America's image can really improve is when Bush is no longer in power and doesn't have any real control over his own image and the media- only that way will his brainwashing propaganda can stop and the divisions he has caused in American society can start to be truly patched/healed up.

 

[Yan]

USA cannot change the situation in Iraq anyways. Their culture is not the same and we saw multiple times that they don't want a democracy. USA must admit this and they must bring troops home. Some pro republicans say that we cannot stop this war because we need to protect America but I just have one question to ask them : why attacking Iraq? Terrorists are everywhere, not just in Iraq.

You are an Irakian and a foreigner contry comes in your country and they want to change everything, they want to change your life, they want to make a democracy. You won't like USA, you will hate it more and you will try to defend your culture. I know I'm repeating what I said. I'm not a specialist about politics and all that but I know what's good and what's wrong and Iraq war is wrong. You cannot make a democracy in a country where they have their own way of life since maybe 3000 years.

I think that a country must go in the way of democracy by themselve but if another country want to force them to have a democracy, it will make the opposite effect, they will try to wash away the ennemy of their country...

 

[hideway]

I thought some of you would find actual data useful.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/resist/2007/09bbciraqipoll.pdf

 

[Capster78]

dude, your government has been screwing up humanrights all the time...hell you also have been dealing with governments that **** up humanrights all the time(like S.Arabia, Israel etc)....besides didn't the US government actually sell certain things to saddam and supported him untill he went after kuwait?
what do you call Abu grhaib/Iraqi Jails etc, this entire invasion is a crime against humanity. please stop the hypocrisy, during the time the us was fighting against the nazi's people were still getting lynched beause of the facist apartheid system in the us.
Socialism is condemned in the states right? well guess what, here in Europa Socialist parties are extremely populair(from the Netherlands to Turkey) and actually run the parlement/country like Spain etc. the healthcare system Barack and Clinton are talking about is a stereotypical 'socialist' aspect.
people only c the 'evil' they want to c.
hypocrisy truly is the ruler of all.

Im not going to even get into your socialism argument other than to say that the proof is already out there as to which system is more proficent.

Your human rights argument smells of anti US propaganda along with your argument that the US government sold anything to the Iraqi governemnt. The US governemnt approved the sale of Dual Use items to Iraq which individually are innocent products. The government did not sell the products, it was a few small companies within the US who were either disbanded or prosecuted for selling said items. The products that were sold were DUAL use products. Some of the products in question were things like computer equipment, pestacides, bacteria cultures (for research purposes) and some precision manufactoring equipment. We did not sell them any WMD's or weapons as some claim.

Another thing about your human rights arguments. How much time in prison does an Insurgent spend for beheading and killing civilians? Did you know that the people who were involved in Abu Gharib are serving time in prison? Yes, we actually enforce human rights. Who has pressured china to the point to where they are now almost a domocratic nation. Who brings human rights issues to the forefront in North Korea and Africa? Thats right, the US. So your human rights argument is off based. Name a war by any country that did not have once human rights violation? I think that should satisfy this argument.

 

[Capster78]

the war on terror is just a bunch of bullcrap.
any individuel could blow up the dutch parlement(binnenhof) right now without sacrificing his life, there are hundreds of historical important buildings and other important infrastructural places all over Europe that people can blow up without ever getting caught or having to sacrifice their lifes for it, even if there was security it would
I stand by my argument that the world needs to do something about the Israel/Palestine conflict because that would solve a lot of problems world wide.
leave afganistan alone, there has been no peace since the russians invaded and the taliban emerged, now 20 years later canadian/dutch/american and other forces are still fighting and screwing up the natives and the land.
we are using the wrong methods, doing the wrong things. more understanding of eachother, basically more talk and way less action. people who defended their homes have been murdered and labeled terrorists
if we want to fight 'terrorism' we should acknowledge the 'terrorist' in ourselves and stop our terrorist activities in which 'we' participate instead of trying to talk them right and looking for excuses.

This type of argument is the same argument that was presented before WW1 and WW2. Why should we get involved? Its not our business anyway and we can not change it. It is what it is, right? I guess if you wish to be speaking german right now and work in a concentration camp (if you don't have blonde hair and blue eyes that is). Again, the flawed argument that peace is the answer. There can be no peace staring down the barrel of a gun. How can you plead peace with someone that knows nothing but war to achive their agenda? It would be like throwing a pebble at a brick wall hopeing to knock it down. Sometimes you have to blow that wall all to hell.