岩手弁

[Gurauki]

@Mars Man suggested i try researching 岩手弁 as there might be more information on it. Clearly, there is. Problem is, I'm getting a bunch of different lists of words that are supposed to be 岩手弁, but the sites don't seem to connect, making it seem like they might even conflict. Does anyone know any 岩手弁 words that could allow me to cross examine the sites i found? I know that there are probably different sets of words for different parts of the prefecture, but i can't seem to find anything on these pages telling me what part of the prefecture they pertain to.

 

[Elizabeth]

These are the two dialects I've heard, through the sister of a friend, are spoken in Iwate ken:


Iwate Hougen and Iwate-Minami Hougen.

 

[Charles Barkley]

I live in northern Miyagi (about 10-15 minutes south of Iwate by car), so this is also miyagi ben and thus might fall under the second of elizabeth's categories. Anyway, I've heard its also Iwate ben.

しばれる=寒い

 

[Gurauki]

These are the two dialects I've heard, through the sister of a friend, are spoken in Iwate ken:


Iwate Hougen and Iwate-Minami Hougen.

None of the pages specify which... One page even uses some really, really weird words. Words with ぁぃぅぇぉ as opposed to あいうえお... It's really weird. Mostly after す or つ. Considering it's really short and claims to be "real" i'm assuming it's just some guy trying to show off.

I live in northern Miyagi (about 10-15 minutes south of Iwate by car), so this is also miyagi ben and thus might fall under the second of elizabeth's categories. Anyway, I've heard its also Iwate ben.

しばれる=寒い

That word i found on one of the pages that actually has recordings of them saying the words, though they don't have any example sentances, but i think i could do some googling to help solve that problem.

Now, with that site in mind, it has the following text.

赤色:アクセント位置
カタカナ：鼻濁音

So then comes the question of how they handle the words from standard japanese, weather they add their accent and "鼻濁音" to regular words or not. English pages says it does, but i've already learned to be weary of the english pages. I'm not sure weather or not they "nasalize" standard japanese or not. Do you know anything about that, Charles? If so, is there any particular pattern to it?

I think i'm going to stick with 岩手南弁, since i clearly have quite some material on it (contrary to my shot at trying to sort out 宮崎弁 where i only found 1 recording, and that was after i moved on to 岩手弁). I guess 岩手県 has either a dialect that different or something else attracts more resources to it.

I thank you both for your assitance. I hope to return the favor sometime.

 

[Charles Barkley]

Sorry, my Japanese is not quite at the level where I could pick that up just from listening to people. And though I live close to Iwate, most of the discussions I have had with fellow teachers/other Japanese have been about miyagi ben, and even then, more focused on vocabularly than more academic issues...

 

[epigene]

This reminds me of a post I made a couple of years back.

"Don't give me a $h!+" ?_?

 

[FrustratedDave]

epigene very Interesting, although I don't hear that "n" being used here in kansai either. Gurauki Is there a reason as why you want to research 岩手弁?

 

[JimmySeal]

I have read that the nasalisation is mainly a characteristic of Eastern (i.e. Tokyo) Japanese, and that anyone who wants to be a newscaster for the big networks has to talk that way. I find it a mite bit irritating myself.

 

[Charles Barkley]

One of my tutor/conversation partners is older/grew up in northern miyagi and definitely pronounces the slight n before the g. Its more like, instead of distinctly moving from the ta in the front of your mouth to the ga in the back, you kind of connect the two. So its definitely not a separate n sound, just a nasally connection between the two.

I usually do it myself as well now. Or at least I try to.

 

[Gurauki]

This reminds me of a post I made a couple of years back.

That dosn't surprise me at all.

Gurauki Is there a reason as why you want to research 岩手弁?

I wanted to research any dialect for many reasons. I asked marsman to see if he could think of a dialect that probably had alot of information on, but isn't a major touristy place so i don't end up sounding like i picked up all my japanese from アニメ. The main idea behind picking up a dialect (for me that is) is to at least pick up enough of an accent to appear that i actually studied japanese and may even appear at least a little cultured, rather than some one who says weird things like "you are so kawaii" or "i suki you." Wapanese is annoying to me, and i'm sure that it's annoying to other japanese people. The idea behind a dialect is to pick up some dialect vocabulary, and to seperate myself from that dis-respectful and horribly mis-lead group of people. Though i also have some other reasons, those two reasons are the main ones.

So its definitely not a separate n sound, just a nasally connection between the two.

Depending on how fast i speak any language (japanese, french, english) i do that or not. Typically it's when i speak the fastest because i'm trying to get the vowel sounds out with the consonants, but sometimes i go a bit too fast. Usually the slower you go, the more distinct you are. I notice this alot in english. Regular english speakers would think they're saying "What're you up to?" Though, in all reality, they're saying "vachuptuh?" Some people replace the w and some even put a y after the ch. Sometimes i'll spell it "vachuptuh" just to see how long it takes people to figure it out.

I have read that the nasalisation is mainly a characteristic of Eastern (i.e. Tokyo) Japanese, and that anyone who wants to be a newscaster for the big networks has to talk that way. I find it a mite bit irritating myself.

As i said above, it can help you talk faster. Personally, i don't like the eastern as much as the southern, because the eastern appears to slur things more, and the difference between ちや and ちゃ and other such combinations are a bit harder to tell apart, but that's just my own personal observation. Also, your ちゃ is easier to pronounce than the other. By nature, people try to say things normally, and naturally the japanese don't always think about how well they're pronouncing something, they just say it. How fast your normally talk, your dialect, and your personality all determine how slurred your speech is. English speakers often can't understand my spoken english, even though english is my mother tounge.

 

[Charles Barkley]

Wait, you already speak Japanese at a quite high level but want to cultivate an accent to separate you from anime people? Seems a bit excessive...Also, perhaps people might be put off by the fact that you use an accent from an area you never even lived in, just for the sake of, for lack of a better word, sounding cool?

As long as you didn't in fact learn all your Japanese from a manga, why would you sound like it? There are plenty of foreigners here who speak standard Japanese and have no interest in the stuff. And if you did learn all your Japanese from manga...good on you, its a one of many good ways to learn, so why hide the fact?

Just sounds to me a bit insincere, when you could accomplish the same thing just by talking about interesting things...ie developing interesting content in your speech that makes it clear you're not just here for the manga, rather than developing an accent from a place you've never lived.

Also, if Wapanese annoys you, it seems like Japanese, which does the exact opposite only with English expression, should drive you crazy...

 

[Gurauki]

Wait, you already speak Japanese at a quite high level but want to cultivate an accent to separate you from anime people? Seems a bit excessive...

I've been confused with those geeks way too many times (not just by japanese, even waps themselves. Though, it's better to have them yell at me that i can't speak japanese than for them to sit and pester me about their イヌヤジャ or their ナルト). I've taken offence to it quite a bit.

Also, perhaps people might be put off by the fact that you use an accent from an area you never even lived in, just for the sake of, for lack of a better word, sounding cool?

Normally, if no one mentioned that i studied it, they'd probably think it was learned through a homestay (exchange student) or something.

As long as you didn't in fact learn all your Japanese from a manga, why would you sound like it?

I have yet to know why, aside from even a handful of the wapanese are using polite speech as well.

Just sounds to me a bit insincere, when you could accomplish the same thing just by talking about interesting things...ie developing interesting content in your speech that makes it clear you're not just here for the manga, rather than developing an accent from a place you've never lived.

Usually once people have a certain idea about something (especially other people) they are a pain to change the opinion of. Heck, i might even ask a question i want answered, that dosn't seperate me from the wapanese.

Also, if Wapanese annoys you, it seems like Japanese, which does the exact opposite only with English expression, should drive you crazy...

I seldom see it, and even less do i see it from japanese. I think it's funny though how you can go to a japanese learning site, though, and find out who's american/british and who's japanese by looking at their names. The americans have names that the IME has trouble decyphering (thinks you're trying to type in a bunch of compound verbs) while the japanese have American or European names or something written in english (Ex: Stupid_Duck). Even more interesting, is that most of them are usually from 大阪 (though no offence intended to 大阪県人).

 

[Mike Cash]

Did you even read my last reponse to you in your abandoned Miyazaki-ben thread?

 

[Gurauki]

I'll reply here since this one is more lively, then we can let the other one kind of die.

As for getting a native speaker to help me with 宮崎弁, it's apparently difficult. When mars man told me that i'd find more on 岩手弁, i decided to change to that instead since i could clearly see that there are more recordings of it, which makes picking it up alot easier.

Did you even read my last response to you in your abandoned Miyazaki-ben thread?

Didn't notice till you said something. Basically, i feel confident enough with japanese to pick up a dialect. One big problem with concentrating on learning standard words first is that some non-standard words are being called so (や used as だ for example). Another problem, is that it's easier to speak what is natural to the speaker, so if i worry about standard japanese first, it'd be rather difficult picking up a dialect (especially accent) later on. So, to get rid of my american accent when speaking japanese, it's important to pick up a distinct one as soon as possible. I would have given you an example of why picking one up at all is important, but this place doesn't want me posting links yet.

 

[Elizabeth]

Wait, you already speak Japanese at a quite high level but want to cultivate an accent to separate you from anime people?

It's still at a rather low level from the bits and pieces that I've been able to glean here. Which is, of course, completely natural from a student at the end of their first year. I'm not knocking anyone's efforts, but just to ensure we're all interpreting the same situation...

Seems a bit excessive...Also, perhaps people might be put off by the fact that you use an accent from an area you never even lived in, just for the sake of, for lack of a better word, sounding cool?

Gurauki, have you ever even BEEN to provincial Japan ??? (or anywhere in the country for that matter....) The only foreigners local natives are only going to appreciate learning their accent are those who are planning to live/work in the area or perhaps are linguists interested in scientific study. And even that is hardly guaranteed.

There's still going to be a huge barrier if your standard vocabulary/grammar isn't up to the task of explaining your rather idiosyncratic thought processes in real Japanese. These can be VERY, VERY insular places which means they sure as hell are not going to understand English. Unless you're planning to become proficient entirely through a course of listening to online recordings which I think is highly unlikely.

But most importantly, who wouldn't be suspicious and hostile of their beautiful, unique language being experimented with by a foreigner only interested in losing an accent and proving in some very idealized way their fidelity to traditional Japanese culture ? The whole idea behind picking a dialect arbitrarily because there is more documentation of it on the Internet is insulting and I have no doubt completely incomprehensible from the standpoint of the people you profess to respect so highly.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Another problem, is that it's easier to speak what is natural to the speaker, so if i worry about standard japanese first, it'd be rather difficult picking up a dialect (especially accent) later on. So, to get rid of my american accent when speaking japanese, it's important to pick up a distinct one as soon as possible

Speaking with words from that local will not ensure you loose your "American accent" any faster.

 

[Mike Cash]

So, to get rid of my american accent when speaking japanese, it's important to pick up a distinct one as soon as possible.

Right.

We all know that the accent of standard Japanese is indistinguishable from the accent of American English.

Seriously, you come up with such naive tommyrot that I can't think of a way to take it apart and straighten you out on it without coming across as viciously cruel.....which is all that has kept me from doing it.

And, like Elizabeth, I am extremely loath to say anything which seems critical of another person's best efforts with whatever language they're learning....but suffice it to say that when I suggested that instead of this odd idea you have regarding picking up a dialect you should give thought to concentrating on standard Japanese I was doing my darnedest to be gentle.

Butchered grammar, inadequate vocabulary, and lack of familiarity with natural ways of phrasing things will completely erase any Kewl Quotient that may or may not be associated with mimicking some obscure regional dialect. And there is no reason to think that a regional dialect will eliminate an American accent.

Actually, this sort of desire to do something to separate one's self from the anime crowd by speaking in dialect in very common, though it is almost always Kansai-ben. Another common reason to wish to put on the affectation of a regional dialect is to cover up one's deficiencies in the presence of students who put effort into standard Japanese. "You didn't understand me? Oh!....haha....sorry! I always forget and speak in Iwate-ben. Of course you wouldn't understand that....haha." Anything will serve the purpose, just so long as one can play it off and one-up the others, even if it is totally bogus. Pathetic is what it is, はっきり言わしてもらえば.

 

[JimmySeal]

People are probably mistaking you for an otaku because you are speaking shoddy Japanese with an American accent. To the best of my knowledge, anime fans are not known for speaking standard Japanese; they are mostly known for speaking bad Japanese.
People who speak Japanese well in any dialect (including the standard dialect) are rarely mistaken for anime nuts. Someone who has reached that point is usually assumed to have more than comic books and cartoons in their heads.

Of course this is all moot anyway. Unless you can find an extensive collection of Iwate-ben audio and/or a conversation partner who speaks that dialect, there is no way that you will acquire the accent of that dialect. It's impossible. You can't learn an accent by reading web pages.

So stick to standard Japanese and if someday you find yourself living in some regional area of Japan, I hope you enjoy picking up the local dialect. I must admit, it is a bit fun.

 

[Gurauki]

It's still at a rather low level from the bits and pieces that I've been able to glean here.

Are you a native? I was always told (and noticed on my own) that natives typically don't say such things like that. And only a native would be able to determine my ability, so, by rating me as a non-native, you are becomming a hypocrite for trying to be something you're not, which is what you're accusing me of doing.

But most importantly, who wouldn't be suspicious and hostile of their beautiful, unique language being experimented with by a foreigner only interested in losing an accent and proving in some very idealized way their fidelity to traditional Japanese culture ? The whole idea behind picking a dialect arbitrarily because there is more documentation of it on the Internet is insulting and I have no doubt completely incomprehensible from the standpoint of the people you profess to respect so highly.

That is a matter of opinion. Unless japanese get offended easily, i can't see why they'd be bothered. I would imagin they would have more respect for some one who's trying to learn one.

Speaking with words from that local will not ensure you loose your "American accent" any faster.

Of course not, though trying to match the accent itself will. Using the words makes me use the dialect's words, using the accent makes me loose my american accent. And they both seemingly come together in japan.

We all know that the accent of standard Japanese is indistinguishable from the accent of American English. Seriously, you come up with such naive tommyrot that I can't think of a way to take it apart and straighten you out on it without coming across as viciously cruel.....which is all that has kept me from doing it.

Standard japanese is a mixture of all the accents. Making it difficult to pick up one from it.

And, like Elizabeth, I am extremely loath to say anything which seems critical of another person's best efforts with whatever language they're learning....but suffice it to say that when I suggested that instead of this odd idea you have regarding picking up a dialect you should give thought to concentrating on standard Japanese I was doing my darnedest to be gentle.

I find that hard to believe, considering you didn't have to post this at all, for it didn't deepen my insight into the topic that i asked for assistance on.

Another common reason to wish to put on the affectation of a regional dialect is to cover up one's deficiencies in the presence of students who put effort into standard Japanese.

I only do that to difinitive waps who stick only to ローマ字 or are over confident with themselves (Tomii for example), but even then i don't even pick an obscure dialect to do that. I'll admit i'm a bit of a showoff, but to sit there and show off with japanese is pointless, especially for i get mocked enough for it. I can assure you, i have better things to show off with than a language.

People are probably mistaking you for an otaku because you are speaking shoddy Japanese with an American accent. To the best of my knowledge, anime fans are not known for speaking standard Japanese; they are mostly known for speaking bad Japanese.

Mostly, but a few of those freaks actually speak standard Japanese, though they still are few in numbers.

Of course this is all moot anyway. Unless you can find an extensive collection of Iwate-ben audio and/or a conversation partner who speaks that dialect, there is no way that you will acquire the accent of that dialect. It's impossible. You can't learn an accent by reading web pages.

Exactly, which is why i lost hope on 宮崎弁, but i did find a bit of audio material on 岩手弁. Including a nice "dictionary" with recordings of almost every word being said. i think a few words are not in there, but you can never expect to get everything from one source.

So stick to standard Japanese and if someday you find yourself living in some regional area of Japan, I hope you enjoy picking up the local dialect. I must admit, it is a bit fun.

Perhaps you have a point. I have less than a week before i'll no longer have time to pick it up. Though i will say it was a bit unrealistic of me to try to pick up the accent itself in less than a month.

 

[Mike Cash]

Are you a native? I was always told (and noticed on my own) that natives typically don't say such things like that. And only a native would be able to determine my ability, so, by rating me as a non-native, you are becomming a hypocrite for trying to be something you're not, which is what you're accusing me of doing.

It doesn't take a native to form an opinion based on examples such as:

Personally, if some one sat a cup of dirty water infront of me i would say, "それを飲みたい！？駄目な～！行ってくれ！又、あんたの水欲しくないな！"

I'm no native. I'm not even particularly good at Japanese. But I've been surrounded by it and using it as a tool of daily life both at home and at work since probably before you were born.....and despite not being a native I can easily spot that you lack familiarity with colloquial Japanese and more natural ways of expressing things.

I can also spot that you're ostentatious and are impervious to good advice, so best of luck with your endeavors.

I have less than a week before i'll no longer have time to pick it up. Though i will say it was a bit unrealistic of me to try to pick up the accent itself in less than a month.

You expected to pick up in less than a month the accent/dialect of a region you've never been to in a country you've never been to whose language you are just beginning to learn? That's not a bit unrealistic; that's delusional.

Interestingly, it was for the purpose of deluding people. At least you're internally consistent. Gotta give you that.

 

[Elizabeth]

Standard japanese is a mixture of all the accents. Making it difficult to pick up one from it.

It is ? Care to elaborate or offer any evidence in support ? Even imagining it in American terms, do you also hear in a standard "Midwestern accent" features of southern, New York, other Midwestern regions, California-girl talk etc...? Local speech patterns (accents, dialects) are all unique precisely because they have developed independently.

There's no like super language maven that throws all these variations in a pot, stirs it up, melts them together, like magic, out comes "normative usage." I would be very interested in knowing how 岩手弁 or 宮崎弁 has contributed to standard Tokyo Japanese.

That is a matter of opinion. Unless japanese get offended easily, i can't see why they'd be bothered. I would imagin they would have more respect for some one who's trying to learn one.

Try putting yourself in the position of a Japanese national with a poor command of English coming to New York or New England and fresh off the plane trying to "lose their accent" by speaking with a distorted exaggeration of what they hear as a regional "accent". Gliding certain vowels, making others broader ("car" as "core" or "girl" as "goil") etc. It would either be laughed out of the room or taken as an extremely offensive caricatured statement on the local population.


Substitute dialect for accent, multiply the attitudes/sensitivities of the people by several orders of magnitude and it'll at least start to give you some idea of what you're dealing with. It's difficult enough as a beginner to find someone to practice with in Tokyo without constantly being reverted to English.

 

[epigene]

Are you a native? I was always told (and noticed on my own) that natives typically don't say such things like that. And only a native would be able to determine my ability, so, by rating me as a non-native, you are becomming a hypocrite for trying to be something you're not, which is what you're accusing me of doing.

As native-speaking Japanese, I wholeheartedly support "every word" Mike, Elizabeth and JimmySeal have advised you here.

And don't underestimate MikeCash, he possesses a sense of humility (a virtue from the traditional Japanese perspective) about his mastery of the Japanese language, which I am convinced is superb.

 

[Gurauki]

I can also spot that you're ostentatious and are impervious to good advice, so best of luck with your endeavors.

If so, why did you even bother replying? =p

I'm no native.

It has been said here (privately) and other places as well. The problem these days with sites like jref is the natives seldom respond while the non-natives are teaching the language of the natives. But no, they couldn't possibly be right, because you're ancient and wise.

Interestingly, it was for the purpose of deluding people. At least you're internally consistent. Gotta give you that.

Delusions that i'm not those offencive bastards that treat the japanese like they're characters from cartoons? I never said i want to lead on that i am japanese, but of course some one of your pompous nature can't see that. At least you are consitant internally, as well.

It is ? Care to elaborate or offer any evidence in support ? Even imagining it in American terms, do you also hear in a standard "Midwestern accent" features of southern, New York, other Midwestern regions, California-girl talk etc...? Local speech patterns (accents, dialects) are all unique precisely because they have developed independently.

They didn't make words appear out of no-where for standard, therefor it has to be a mix of the dialects. Previous of it's existance, they all spoke seperate dialects of the same language. To make a standard of that same language from scratch, they have to use what they already have.

Try putting yourself in the position of a Japanese national with a poor command of English coming to New York or New England and fresh off the plane trying to "lose their accent" by speaking with a distorted exaggeration of what they hear as a regional "accent". Gliding certain vowels, making others broader ("car" as "core" or "girl" as "goil") etc. It would either be laughed out of the room or taken as an extremely offensive caricatured statement on the local population.

I find it far from impossible to eventually succeed.

Substitute dialect for accent, multiply the attitudes/sensitivities of the people by several orders of magnitude and it'll at least start to give you some idea of what you're dealing with. It's difficult enough as a beginner to find someone to practice with in Tokyo without constantly being reverted to English.

Of that i'm well aware.

And don't underestimate MikeCash, he possesses a sense of humility (a virtue from the traditional Japanese perspective) about his mastery of the Japanese language, which I am convinced is superb.

Meh, if he's humble i won't have to worry about him getting angry or offended by it. In all honesty, i myself am willing to admit without any problems that i'm not fluent. His "humility" i find to be a rather quiet sarcasm considering the rest of his posts. Humble is not a man who throws around his age only guessing that everyone is younger than you. Humble is keeping their mouth shut and let it to some one who is sure. Humble is a person who respects some one whom he dosn't know. I know i'm not humble, but i've seen anything but humble from him as well. Though, even if by some magic crystal ball he does know me, feels he's the only one here who would know the topic, and happens to know my age, i would find his usage of japanese the only thing he's humble about. I can't over-estimate or even respect a man who is so old, but acts younger than even me. Like a little child, he only admits his lack of fluency for the sake of looking good in an argument.

Though, i have no reason to continue this topic any further. It is fruitless, and will not do anyone any good except end up leading into some kind of firefight.

 

[undrentide]

They didn't make words appear out of no-where for standard, therefor it has to be a mix of the dialects. Previous of it's existance, they all spoke seperate dialects of the same language. To make a standard of that same language from scratch, they have to use what they already have.

You need to know that the "standard" Japanese is NOT a mixture of many dialects. What we call standard Japanese today is based on ONE dialect - the language spoken in Yamanote area of Tokyo.

I'm not sure what exactly "American accent" can be when speaking Japanese, but guess it could be stressing too strongly (like English) while Japanese has only pitch accent, or applying wrong pitch accento to words/phrases, or pronouncing some particular vowels differently (like saying "kariokee" for "karaoke") - in any case, I don't thinkn trying picking up words and pitch accents from other dialect would help to eliminate it.

Besides, as you're already aware that even one dialect (Iwate ben or Miyazaki ben) can vary greately depending on the region, it will be hard to find the information what the "standard" Iwate ben or Miyazaki ben is. At least you can find a lot of information on "Standard" Japanese (or Tokyo yamanote kotoba), you can find the correct pitch accent in dictionary, and there are tons of audio materials on the net.

NHK has 15 minutes drama every morning, and it changes every six months. Often this drama is based on a story on a particular place, currently it is a story from Morioka, Iwate. People in the drama are supposed to speak Morioka-ben (one of the Iwate ben spoken in Morioka area), and the actors/actress are taught/directed by a specialist of the dialet, yet NHK always get a lot of criticism from the locals that "they speak incorrectly - their Morioka ben is totally wrong!" "(such and such words are) not used in this area", etc. This happens almost every time NHK has dramas with some "local flavour" (= dialect).
From this you can see it is very difficult to acquire a dialect even for the native Japanese!

People posting in this thread are just trying to tell you that trying to pick up a random dialect instead of trying to learn the Standard Japanese would not serve the purpose you have in mind. I know when you're trying to something hard and people give you negative reaction to it, it may sound harsh and difficult to take/accept, but as far as I read the opinions and suggestions made here, they are talking from a very practical point of view - I don't think their intention is to offend you.

 

[Elizabeth]

You need to know that the "standard" Japanese is NOT a mixture of many dialects. What we call standard Japanese today is based on ONE dialect - the language spoken in Yamanote area of Tokyo.

Yes, specifically I believe the "Yamanote/standard" began to be adopted formally after the 明治維新, meiji ishin) (1868) for purposes of unifying the country and communications from central Tokyo outward to the various provinces.

I'm not sure what exactly "American accent" can be when speaking Japanese, but guess it could be stressing too strongly (like English) while Japanese has only pitch accent, or applying wrong pitch accento to words/phrases, or pronouncing some particular vowels differently (like saying "kariokee" for "karaoke") - in any case, I don't thinkn trying picking up words and pitch accents from other dialect would help to eliminate it.

I completely agree on this point as well. To a native speaker, standard Japanese may be heard as "flat/neutral," or not as conspicuously "accented" as other dialects. But that in no way means it is closer relative to an American accent than venacular, local or regional speech patterns or easier to "not lose" (adapt to) for an English speaker.