Surely the meaning of 'gaijin' is contextual?!

[bakaKanadajin]

while the topic of going native is fascinating, may i move off topic and ask about how gaijin interact with other gaijin. i realise that this topic has been addressed elsewhere in other threads but that's what i am really interested in. the comments so far about how gaijin exert power over other gaijin through japanese language ability, i reckon have merely scratched the surface. what happens when gaijin come together? is it merely japan bashing or how good it is? one-upmanship about how long in japan, what foods can be eaten etc. or something more subtle and perhaps sinister? i want good juicy post here!

I'll give you an example.
Among the Nova teachers I worked with very few knew any Japanese. Some had dabbled, but many hadn't moved past Izakaya Japanese and those were the ones who were considered 'good' because they could take care of themselves when eating out, which is socially important in Tokyo. There were a few however who honestly had a good mastery of the fundamentals and were what I'd call 'intermediate', probably capable of passing JLPT3 with flying colours and making a dent in JLPT2 and were excelling in their continuing studies. As a beginner, I envied and looked up to these teachers. I automatically elevated them in my mind above the rest even if they were pr1cks. In fact there was one teacher who everyone (myself included) found incredibly annoying and useless as a teacher. However she was an excellent Japanese speaker. I found this out after she'd left and gone home, and to be perfectly honest had I known this about her I truly feel i would have given her far more consideration.

Also, my American girlfriend in Japan had been studying Kanji far longer than me and to this day I envy her Kanji reading and writing abilities. Likewise, I focused more on speaking and was a better speaker than her, had an easier time putting my grammar and structures together, and perhaps she envied this. It wasn't one-upmanship and we helped each other study but that envy was there. We'd correct each other politely because we respected each others desire to learn. By contrast I had another friend who was dabbling and asked me a question about Japanese once. I gave her a complete answer and she texted back saying 'sheesh thanks for the Encyclopedia entry'. I felt pretty angry and offended at this, thinking "hey, I'm better than you at Japanese because you're dragging your butt in your studies, you should be thanking me for even bothering to answer you!"

My Japanese although not great was far better than the normal teachers and I definitely felt a sense of accomplishment at this and when called on to help them out with bank stuff or whatever, it made me feel good.

So those are some examples of my feelings. I hope they're helpful.

I think the main point of contention is among those who are actively seeking proficiency in Japanese culture and language, and those who are merely long-term 'tourists', content in their ignorance. If you're going to move to another country, why not do at least something to learn a little of the language so you're not a burden on people? At least learn the phrase "sumimasen, eigo hanashimasuka?" or something. But there were alot of teachers I met who had been in the country for 2-3 years and 1) hated most traditional Japanese foods 2) had zero interest in the culture and language and 3) didn't even like Japanese women/men. Beyond this, they complained alot about various things to do with Japanese society they found inconvenient.

For those of us who were studying and enjoying the culture, we looked down on these people and held the at arms length. We definitely felt they weren't on the same level. There was one guy who'd been there for 7 years and couldn't even read Hiragana. We all thought he was a real boob for not even trying. I think these are two basic classifications of Western gaijin in Japan, those who feel they're 'on the level' and doing their relative best to integrate and show some respect, and those who aren't making the effort. The main way to demonstrate this is by learning the language.

 

[KirinMan]

I think the main point of contention is among those who are actively seeking proficiency in Japanese culture and language, and those who are merely long-term 'tourists', content in their ignorance.

You raise another point that people have been discussing for years, is the Japanese language an essential part of the culture? I know of many Japanese that get rather upset when they hear foreigners speaking better Japanese than their counterparts or they do. They feel it is an affront to themselves and their country, because they should be no way a foreigner can or could understand the nuances in the language to fully understand it.

If you're going to move to another country, why not do at least something to learn a little of the language so you're not a burden on people? At least learn the phrase "sumimasen, eigo hanashimasuka?" or something.

In theory I agree with this, however and not to belittle the point you are making here each person is very different. I know of people that have been living here in Japan for well over 30 years and the best Japanese that they can speak is "Ohaiyo". They are not a "burden" on anyone, in fact one man I know is a very successful businessman, he pays people to translate or interpret for him.

That's his choice, and sure he may be the exception to the rule, but people like him do exist here. It almost sounds if you are judging people according to whether or not they make an effort to adapt or "go native".

But there were alot of teachers I met who had been in the country for 2-3 years and 1) hated most traditional Japanese foods 2) had zero interest in the culture and language and 3) didn't even like Japanese women/men. Beyond this, they complained alot about various things to do with Japanese society they found inconvenient.

Hence the rather poor impression that many people have of NOVA and or any of the big eikaiwa's. People like you describe here have one goal in mind$$$$. Great for them but it sucks if you happen to be a student or work with them.

For those of us who were studying and enjoying the culture, we looked down on these people and held the at arms length. We definitely felt they weren't on the same level. There was one guy who'd been there for 7 years and couldn't even read Hiragana. We all thought he was a real boob for not even trying.

I give you credit for your honesty here. Whether you realize it or not it could be from those person's point of view that you were the one's going native. It is also a matter of perception.

I think these are two basic classifications of Western gaijin in Japan, those who feel they're 'on the level' and doing their relative best to integrate and show some respect, and those who aren't making the effort. The main way to demonstrate this is by learning the language.

I disagree with your "classificiations", which are generalizations as well. Classifying people as being one thing or another is rather discriminatory at best. Sure it's easy to be judgemental and say these people are this or that, just because they dont fit your mold or description, I dont think that is fair. In a manner this is a rather close minded statement in my opinion.

It sounds if you are leaving no allowances for anything in between, each person is different.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

You raise another point that people have been discussing for years, is the Japanese language an essential part of the culture? I know of many Japanese that get rather upset when they hear foreigners speaking better Japanese than their counterparts or they do. They feel it is an affront to themselves and their country, because they should be no way a foreigner can or could understand the nuances in the language to fully understand it.

To comment on this, I don't get upset when I hear a non-Western individual speaking English, on the contrary I'm envious that they most likely possess the ability to seamlessly navigate between two languages, English and whatever other language they were raised with. Most people you'd speak to in Canada would praise them for learning. Why is it that a 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人 may be upset? My only guess is that they feel the purity of their culture is being violated in some small way, and this would lend itself to the conclusion that language is in fact viewed as a very important part of culture. Beyond that example, I personally think the connection between language and culture is obvious, no modern culture can be understood without a firm grasp on the nuances and roots of that culture, and these are transmitted via language. Many linguistic anthropologists would go so far as to say language IS culture.

In theory I agree with this, however and not to belittle the point you are making here each person is very different. I know of people that have been living here in Japan for well over 30 years and the best Japanese that they can speak is "Ohaiyo". They are not a "burden" on anyone, in fact one man I know is a very successful businessman, he pays people to translate or interpret for him.
That's his choice, and sure he may be the exception to the rule, but people like him do exist here. It almost sounds if you are judging people according to whether or not they make an effort to adapt or "go native".

I won't lie, I am in fact doing that, but it's not to the extreme you may perceive it as. I'm viewing this more as a courtesy afforded by those who would choose to live long-term as guests in any other country, not just Japan. To take your fellow as an example, my reasoning is that regardless of his business interests, he's the one in line at the post office who's holding everyone else up because he hasn't the slightest clue what the woman at the kiosk is asking him. He's the one who can't read the traffic signs, and he can't fill out his own paperwork when ward taxes arrive. Of course there's a grace period, and he doesn't have to 'go native' or completely adapt, but after a few years you should at least be able to handle the basics, its not up to everyone else to help you live your life. I wouldn't automatically argue that they are a burden on others, but this becomes somewhat true if they actively avoid learning the language or simply don't care to but intend to stay in the country long term. I don't expect complete cultural assimilation by any means, 'going native' is almost another discussion entirely. But anyone moving to another country on a permanent or long term basis should be prepared to communicate somewhat proficiently in that country's language after a certain amount of time.

Hence the rather poor impression that many people have of NOVA and or any of the big eikaiwa's. People like you describe here have one goal in mind$$$$. Great for them but it sucks if you happen to be a student or work with them.

No argument here. I almost felt like apologizing on behalf of all Westerners when I heard some of the garbage that passed for lessons at the branches I worked at. Unfortunately finding people willing to pick up and move to another country limits your choices, highly qualified teaching professionals willing to relocate aren't in abundance here in the West.

I give you credit for your honesty here. Whether you realize it or not it could be from those person's point of view that you were the one's going native. It is also a matter of perception.

For me learning the language and going native are two separate things, which can be mututally exclusive up to a point. If one gaijin viewed another as wanting to 'be Japanese' just because they're interested in speaking the language, that would be a short sighted observation on the part of that first gaijin. The reason we looked down on these people wasn't any kind of snobbery where we felt more entitled to the fruits of Japan over them simply because we were studying the language, it was more like an embarrasment that they were so ignorant and rude while being guests in another country. It's almost as if they came over expecting everyone else to speak English among other things.

I disagree with your "classificiations", which are generalizations as well. Classifying people as being one thing or another is rather discriminatory at best. Sure it's easy to be judgemental and say these people are this or that, just because they dont fit your mold or description, I dont think that is fair. In a manner this is a rather close minded statement in my opinion.
It sounds if you are leaving no allowances for anything in between, each person is different.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I still maintain my original statement. All kinds of long-term foreigners can be included in the 'doing their best' category, from the tourists thumbing through their phrase books and trying to be independent and unabrasive, to the guys in Roppongi who run the girly clubs who have enough of a command over Japanese to make their businesses flourish, to the people who are simply there studying, everyones included. I don't think its as exclusive you may think. As long as they're trying their best I give them full credit. They don't have to 'go native', they don't have to achieve JLPT1, but knowing at least some of the language and cultural norms is a big part of this. The flipside of that are those people who really have zero intention of accepting their 'guest' status and expect those around them to accomodate them, the stereotypical belligerent tourist. Whatever your level of ability, you're either trying or not trying I would think.

 

[Glenski]

William Spencer wrote:

i suppose as human beings we look for ways to exert power in our diverse relationships. tell me if i am totally off with this!!!

Depends on the individual, I would think.

what happens when gaijin come together? is it merely japan bashing or how good it is? one-upmanship about how long in japan, what foods can be eaten etc. or something more subtle and perhaps sinister? i want good juicy post here!

What do you mean "come together"? Who? My gaijin friends and I get together and do things as normally as we would back home, within the limits of Japanese society. Barbecues in the park. Birthday parties. Nights out in restaurants/bars. Perhaps you aren't talking about people who are established friends. If so, anything is possible, and I don't know if it matters whether people are in Japan or not that affects their behavior.

Off the top of my head, here are some of the types of encounters I've had with foreigners I didn't know (or barely knew):

1) Politely ignored me on the street or public transportation.
2) Approached me for directions.
3) Casual conversation at group job interviews. Similar stuff about updates when seen later in the information center.
4) Joined up with me as a tourist during festival season.

I would also imagine that alcohol plays a large role in the quality of interactions.

William,
Sorry this isn't as juicy as you had probably wanted, but I think you might need to pin down your question a little more.

 

[William Spencer]

What do you mean "come together"? Who?
Off the top of my head, here are some of the types of encounters I've had with foreigners I didn't know (or barely knew):
William,
Sorry this isn't as juicy as you had probably wanted, but I think you might need to pin down your question a little more.

yeah thanks for that. it's these situations in which one doesn't know the other person, like someone in the street or on a train or in a bar. i have had a look at 'Gaijin Greets' thread from a while back and there's a poll asking whether it's okay for people greet other gaijin i guess in a public place. it's part of what has been called the 'gaijin complex' which many of you are probably familar with.

i'm in japan july-august this year, so i'll do my own field research then (if anyone wants to do my survey let me know!) in terms of getting a rough ethnographic feel for the topic. and since i am travelling from tokyo down to oita via nagoya then up to hakodate via kyoto and akita, i am sure i'll get a full range of gaijin responses (really hope anyway!)...

☝

just to add to that last post...i am certainly interested in both pleasant experiences ie the other person acknowledged you with a smile or whatever but in terms of juicy i am ceratinly (more) interested in those responses which could be construed as downright rude. i am aware that there are several views about this issue of greeting strange gaijin, so i am open to all your responses. i just hope for mike cash's sake that this isn't flogging a dead horse (or camel)!

 

[gaijinalways]

For those of us who were studying and enjoying the culture, we looked down on these people and held the at arms length. We definitely felt they weren't on the same level. There was one guy who'd been there for 7 years and couldn't even read Hiragana. We all thought he was a real boob for not even trying. I think these are two basic classifications of Western gaijin in Japan, those who feel they're 'on the level' and doing their relative best to integrate and show some respect, and those who aren't making the effort. The main way to demonstrate this is by learning the language.

bakaKanadajin,

Sorry, I second Obeika's comments, you're coming across as a bit of a snob here.

Did he tell you he didn't try? Personally myself, I have found that learning more Japanese hasn't made my life more fulfilling, it's simply given me more reasons to want to leave Japan.

Yes, language is a part of culture, but there are parts of culture that are not expressed through written or oral language. Customs come to mind, some of which involve language, some of which don't.

 

[caster51]

I know of many Japanese that get rather upset when they hear foreigners speaking better Japanese than their counterparts or they do. They feel it is an affront to themselves and their country, because they should be no way a foreigner can or could understand the nuances in the language to fully understand it.

I think there is not such japanese.
yeah. it is just suprised at their good japanese with over reaction.
at first, we are not barbarians.
all we know sutdying hard language would be like native speaker.
"the japanese can not play baseball well."
we dont have such mentarily like that
I dont know How come do you konw such Japanese mentality generalized.
it is an Arrogance again.?
i got a culture shock.
japanese does not like a paesonal story that genralize somthing because all we know that is depending on individual.
you should know the japanese is as same as your delicate, prudent .....

 

[Samraiwise]

bakaKanadajin,
Sorry, I second Obeika's comments, you're coming across as a bit of a snob here.

Excuse me, Snob??? Not at all. People who try hard to understand and honour another culture through understanding its language and also are proud of that, deserve better words to be described methink.
Happily I would choose him as my daughter's English tutor.

I don't get upset when I hear a non-Western individual speaking English, on the contrary I'm envious that they most likely possess the ability to seamlessly navigate between two languages, English and whatever other language they were raised with. Most people you'd speak to in Canada would praise them for learning. Why is it that a 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人 may be upset?

I too must wonder why. There is no reason I think of, why we Japanese should get upset about potential foreign friends because of their speaking our language fluently or better than us natives.

You raise another point that people have been discussing for years, is the Japanese language an essential part of the culture? I know of many Japanese that get rather upset when they hear foreigners speaking better Japanese than their counterparts or they do. They feel it is an affront to themselves and their country, because they should be no way a foreigner can or could understand the nuances in the language to fully understand it.

I see you echo the sentiments of Samurais very well, but they lived in a time more than a hundred years ago.
The next time, sir? Please let us speak for ourselves, especially about sentiments of Japanese people these days.

Personally myself, I have found that learning more Japanese hasn't made my life more fulfilling, it's simply given me more reasons to want to leave Japan.

Although I didn't want to take what you wrote here literally, I almost said, suit yourself.
Thank you very much sir, it's your prerogative.

As for the words, gaijin and gaikokujin, many of us have been using them simply because there were no other/better words to define people from other countries as casually as gaijin and gaikokujin.
And older Japanese call you affectionately as gaijin-san.

But as a recent tendency, some of us who actually have friends from other counties prefer using the nationality of the person, like America-jin, Igirisu-jin, Australia-jin, Asia-jin (our fellow Asian), Toyo-jin(Chinese, Korean and Japanese), etc. And if we are not sure then we use ou-bei-jin (European and American).

William Spencer -san, ai nice thread, thanks and wish you success of your planned field trip in Japan.

 

[diceke]

bakaKanadajin,
Did he tell you he didn't try? Personally myself, I have found that learning more Japanese hasn't made my life more fulfilling, it's simply given me more reasons to want to leave Japan.

Although I didn't want to take what you wrote here literally, I almost said, suit yourself.
Thank you very much sir, it's your prerogative.

Ironically it's the person like gaijinalways who cries discrimination over such a response.

 

[Mars Man]

My dear fellow JREF members. . . may we please, please be careful about comments which most clearly can be taken as offensive towards others ? !!

I have found that knowing some Japanese, of course helps. . . but it is far more important to know more of the homo sapien, to be able to work fairly smoothly in various circumstances. Have a good operational degree of knowledge of a culture--and that will involve some language, yes--is a plus. . . yet human nature is more fundimental.

However, what does this have to do with wether 'gaijin' has shades of nuances that depend on contextual patterns or voice intonations?

BUT...PLEASE...No remarks that shine ill-spokenly on other members. . .even they have done something that could be said to have deserved it. In that case, please just report it by PM. (I'm assuming a case that is not an insult, but which evidences a slant which is thoughtless, crude, or somewhat out of place, etc.) {there will be the case by case matter, of course}

THANKS !!! MM

 

[KirinMan]

The next time, sir? Please let us speak for ourselves, especially about sentiments of Japanese people these days.

Mmmm did you actually read what I wrote there?

I know of many Japanese that get rather upset when they hear foreigners speaking better Japanese than their counterparts or they do. They feel it is an affront to themselves and their country, because they should be no way a foreigner can or could understand the nuances in the language to fully understand it.

I am telling you from personal experience here, it wasn't a comment made lightly either. I have talked to many "educated" Japanese Professors and have heard this comment on more than one occasion.

Let me clarify this, it isn't a subject that is common conversation over a beer or coffee, however there are Japanese teachers and Prof's that I personally know that have commented about this phenomenon. They almost take it personally that "gaijin" are better able to communicate in their language and understand their culture and history. They have wondered aloud why is it that "gaijin" take the time and effort to learn about Japan when Japanese kids don't. The roots of this "problem" run very very deeply and answers are not easily come by.

The "average" Japanese person probably doesn't think much about this but from my experience the "educated" ones do.

Also it is also generally accepted that the Japanese level of proficiency among ES/JHS and HS students is dropping at an alarming rate.

Plus it is a fact that compared to the "past" many more "gaijin" are learning not only to speak Japanese but read and write the language as well. It is a cause for concern for not just a few people. Compared to English which has millions if not billions of speakers throughout the world Japanese is a "closed" language by comparison and many Japanese that I know equal their language as being an important part of their culture.

From my experience it isnt just Japanese people that think this way either, just ask any foreigner that studies French and then goes to France, what or how many problems do you think they face?

Happily I would choose him as my daughter's English tutor.

I would be willing to be that they would end up speaking Japanese all the time and your daughter while very possibly making a new friend wouldn't learn too much English.

Personally myself, I have found that learning more Japanese hasn't made my life more fulfilling, it's simply given me more reasons to want to leave Japan.

That sir I understand very well too, too many times I have heard the comment that it would be better off for me not to understand Japanese, purely because people then expect me to know the nuances and "culture" behind what people are saying. This happens particularly at work, and not in a social setting.

But as a recent tendency, some of us who actually have friends from other counties prefer using the nationality of the person, like America-jin, Igirisu-jin, Australia-jin, Asia-jin (our fellow Asian), Toyo-jin(Chinese, Korean and Japanese), etc. And if we are not sure then we use ou-bei-jin (European and American).

That's the same as calling someone "half". You end up putting people in their own little glass cases and dont look at them for who they are. If they were truly your friends their would be no need to refer to them as your OO-jin friend. Plus I have NEVER heard a Japanese person refer to a Chinese person as a Toyo-jin, if I called a Japanese person that it would be an insult.
Believe it or not it almost comes across as racist here.I can't image you calling a fellow Japanese person "Toyo-jin" either, it just sounds incredulous at best.

If someone was truly your friend you wouldn't need to refer to their nationality at all and just view them for who they are and not classify them according to where they come from.

 

[gaijinalways]

Although I didn't want to take what you wrote here literally, I almost said, suit yourself.
Thank you very much sir, it's your prerogative

samuraiwise, I think you're misreading my intent. I still thinking learning a language is always interesting, but too often in Japan I get cases of Japanese coworkers or someone who thinks you don't understand making comments about you in front of you. Not surprisingly, most Japanese people when confronted about it think the practice is rude, yet some continue to do it. Hence, I might consider studying to be not that useful, of course, beyond for every day living here.
But that of course is my own personal opinion. As to what attitude a tutor should have to language, I'm not sure how being in love with learning the language is honoring the culture. I have met some angry English speakers whose only goal seems to be to tell others how annoying they think Westerners are, hardly something to make one proud of them learning the language, though I suppose it is a communication of a sort. The problem is it often takes on a form of propaganda where people try to educate you about a culture they have never lived in. Hence you get odd reasoning from Chinese acquaintances that I knew like the following;
CA- (Chinese acquaintance) How long have you been here?
Me -about 3 years.
CA - Oh, that's a short time!
Me - Yes, it sometimes seems like it.
(later in the same conversation..)
CA - And I was in the US for a long time..!
Me - Oh, how long did you live there?
CA 3 weeks!
Me --(thinking) --Long time, but 3 years for me is short, yet you only visited for 3 weeks?!!--
What I call cultural double standards.

Ironically it's the person like gaijinalways who cries discrimination over such a response

Hardly, dicek, you don't seem to understand very well what I wrote either, see my above comments. I hardly think it's discrimination, merely a concept that is difficult to express and an opinion you may not agree with. I can hardly complain if you disagree, it is after all, my opinion.

I too must wonder why. There is no reason I think of, why we Japanese should get upset about potential foreign friends because of their speaking our language fluently or better than us natives.

samuraiwise You might think so, but as Obeika and I have mentioned, we've met Japanese that think otherwise. I would be hard pressed to meet an American that would have such an opinion, yet here it seems to be a fairly common opinion.
I have met foreigners who know more about the NBA than I do, but that doesn't mean I think it's bad. It's just what they know, not something to gush over how they're honoring American basketball culture.

 

[KirinMan]

I have met foreigners who know more about the NBA than I do, but that doesn't mean I think it's bad. It's just what they know, not something to gush over how they're honoring American basketball culture.

This is an excellent point, I have met numerous Japanese people that know something things about my country, the USA, that I have no recollection of ever hearing before. I was truly amazed that they took the time and effort to learn about my country, I looked at them with a greater amount of respect and to a certain extent awe. They had never been to the USA but had such an interest in learning about it that they learned things that I took for granted.

I can not count the number of times that I have used the local Okinawan dialect and taught "native" Okinawan people about their own language and the meanings and thought behind numerous different phrases and word usage. This is not meant to come across as being arrogant, only that I had and still have a keen interest in learning the local language and customs, in some cases to the chagrin of some friends, they take it personally that I know more about their history, culture and "island" than they do.

I usually explain it away by saying that because I come from a continent and not an island is is more common for "us" to travel and learn things about our surrounding states or countries. I think that many Europeans do this as well, purely because of the location in which they live.

Many Japanese I have met have an "island" or isolated mentality. This is neither good nor bad, it just is, however the majority of the problems occur when they take offense at a foreigner learning more about their country than they do.

I praise and am forever excited by Japanese that can teach me about my country, I am never so arrogant as to assume that I know "everything" there is to know about the US and it's history. I would just appreciate Japanese people recognizing that "me" as a gaijin could know more about their country than they do, and dont take so much offense that I took the time to learn about their country and culture.

 

[diceke]

samuraiwise You might think so, but as Obeika and I have mentioned, we've met Japanese that think otherwise. I would be hard pressed to meet an American that would have such an opinion, yet here it seems to be a fairly common opinion.
I have met foreigners who know more about the NBA than I do, but that doesn't mean I think it's bad. It's just what they know, not something to gush over how they're honoring American basketball culture.

Is it a common opinion among educated Japanese, as Obeika said? Can you name exactly who? Related papers written by them?

 

[bakaKanadajin]

just to add to that last post...i am certainly interested in both pleasant experiences ie the other person acknowledged you with a smile or whatever but in terms of juicy i am ceratinly (more) interested in those responses which could be construed as downright rude.

I was on occasion rude to some tourists who approached me, but only because they did so in an abrupt fashion, they were usually younger guys or Navy 'men' who were already half in the bag and who were asking me questions about good places to pick up chicks, rub n tug joints, etc. By contrast I had a woman recognize my accent and we talked about Canada, where we were both from, etc., and it was a pleasant discussion. To be honest, my feelings towards other gaijin are similar to how I feel about strangers here, if they're idiots I don't wanna deal with them, if they seem nice I'll be more than happy to engage in a conversation.

In a setting with room for more cultural nuances, like perhaps a group of Eikaiwa teachers, their friends and currently vacationing family and/or tag-along visitors, lets say an eclectic group with good variety sitting at an izakaya, the dynamic changes. In these settings that whole idea of who is open to the culture and who is not comes into play. If a fresh-off-the-boat tourist is sitting there and can do nothing but joke, complain and carry-on about how different, inconvenient and strange Japan is, those who enjoy the culture will be naturally offended in a small way, even before any discussion of language or 'going native' becomes an issue. If by comparison a genuinely interested tourist arrives who asks lots of questions and is doing their best to be a polite guest in the country, he or she is better received. I think this is just natural.

Moving up the food chain, some people with the former attitude choose to relocate to Japan, and some people with the latter attitude also do the same. I think the dynamic continues upwards. Those who can't stand Japan, can't be bothered with the langage, etc., will naturally grate the nerves slightly of those who are there to experience all those things. Just my experience and personal sentiment. That's not to say group 1 is hated and scorned by group 2, it's just a small fissure which can balloon when given the chance.

Sorry, I second Obeika's comments, you're coming across as a bit of a snob here.

Did he tell you he didn't try? Personally myself, I have found that learning more Japanese hasn't made my life more fulfilling, it's simply given me more reasons to want to leave Japan.

Yes, language is a part of culture, but there are parts of culture that are not expressed through written or oral language. Customs come to mind, some of which involve language, some of which don't.

Fair enough, I can appreciate your point of view. For the sake of clarity he had often indicated at work that he had little interest, didn't really care to learn and yet he deemed himself somewhat of an expert on most things Japanese. I granted him that status of 'expert' to the degree that he had lived there longer than I had, however accessing customs and culture through pure visual observation alone is limited. I think he was viewed as somewhat of a blowhard by others because his self proclaimed level of cultural knowledge was heavily over-stated and along with his distaste for learning the language and inability to speak he was just, you know, one of those guys that yaps alot of nothing. Again, if someone can't speak the language but is genuinely trying their best I give them FULL CREDIT. Inability is NOT proof of lack of effort. It's this whole attitude of 'I don't care, someone will speak English I'm not going to bother' that sometimes accompanies the inability that really turns me off. I hope I articulated that clearly. Even if he'd just been honest and humble about his lack of effort and apethy and resorted to a phrasebook once in a while, this would have deserved more points in my mind.

I would be willing to be that they would end up speaking Japanese all the time and your daughter while very possibly making a new friend wouldn't learn too much English.

Careful bud, I know you weren't suggesting that my interest in the Japanese language is some parasitic entity and that I'd turn a teaching or language exchange opportunity into something where I could one-sidedly capitalize without reciprocation. I know you weren't suggesting that because it'd be the opinion of a bitter short-sighted man. Perhaps what you meant to say is that you FEEL people who can speak some Japanese aren't capable of creating a fully immersed English teaching environment. But why would that be? That's what every gaijin at every Eikaiwa does all day all night. What's so hard about it? You've put your foot in your mouth there and it mildly offends me. Besides, my Japanese isn't strong to begin with so I doubt that could ever happen.

 

[diceke]

I can not count the number of times that I have used the local Okinawan dialect and taught "native" Okinawan people about their own language and the meanings and thought behind numerous different phrases and word usage. This is not meant to come across as being arrogant, only that I had and still have a keen interest in learning the local language and customs, in some cases to the chagrin of some friends, they take it personally that I know more about their history, culture and "island" than they do.

Umm. What makes you so damn sure that you know better than the educated Japanese? Probably it's the attitude of belittlement that offends people rather than the fact a foreigner knows something about the local language. :?

 

[KirinMan]

Careful bud, I know you weren't suggesting that my interest in the Japanese language is some parasitic entity and that I'd turn a teaching or language exchange opportunity into something where I could one-sidedly capitalize without reciprocation. I know you weren't suggesting that because it'd be the opinion of a bitter short-sighted man. Perhaps what you meant to say is that you FEEL people who can speak some Japanese aren't capable of creating a fully immersed English teaching environment. But why would that be? That's what every gaijin at every Eikaiwa does all day all night. What's so hard about it? . Besides, my Japanese isn't strong to begin with so I doubt that could ever happen.

First off please do not assume to know what I meant, if you have a question ask me ok. I will also kindly overlook your sarcasm here as well.

You've put your foot in your mouth there and it mildly offends me

I'm sorry you are offended but the reply wasn't to you. Dont take it too personally. Once again you are assuming something here, the point here isn't about you.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

First off please do not assume to know what I meant, if you have a question ask me ok. I will also kindly overlook your sarcasm here as well.
I'm sorry you are offended but the reply wasn't to you. Dont take it too personally. Once again you are assuming something here.

There's nothing that needs assuming and there's nothing to ask. Your comment about this hypothetical English lesson, with me as a teacher, was very clear. If YOU wish to clarify go ahead but I won't respond further here because we're getting off-topic. It's a nice gimmick to say I misread what you wrote and somehow failed to comprehend your supremely cryptic intelligence but I think the comment you made was fairly straightforward, I simply called you on it.

Hey at any rate, no hard feelings, it's just a discussion board and you're a thousand miles away

 

[KirinMan]

I simply called you on it.

Wonderful however it still isnt about you. It is about the idea that the poster you are refering to and his comments in a reply to my post.

Dont let it go to your head ok, as you said it is a message board and we are thousands of miles apart, and both are guilty of pulling this thread off topic.

I guess that's enough huh?

 

[Glenski]

William Spencer wrote:

i'm in japan july-august this year, so i'll do my own field research then (if anyone wants to do my survey let me know!) in terms of getting a rough ethnographic feel for the topic. and since i am travelling from tokyo down to oita via nagoya then up to hakodate via kyoto and akita, i am sure i'll get a full range of gaijin responses

Would you mind if I asked what sort of survey this is going to be? From your route, we are unlikely to cross paths, but I would be interested in knowing what and how you are planning to do.

 

[Samraiwise]

That's the same as calling someone "half". You end up putting people in their own little glass cases and dont look at them for who they are. If they were truly your friends their

would be no need to refer to them as your OO-jin friend. Plus I have NEVER heard a Japanese person refer to a Chinese person as a Toyo-jin, if I called a Japanese person that it would be an

insult.
Believe it or not it almost comes across as racist here.I can't image you calling a fellow Japanese person "Toyo-jin" either, it just sounds incredulous at best.

If someone was truly your friend you wouldn't need to refer to their nationality at all and just view them for who they are and not classify them according to where they come from.

Obeika, I am sorry. I didn't realized anybody could take what I wrote the way you did, anyway it's my fault. It must be my clumsy English which had you confused.

I - not often but if I have to - use those words, nationality-jin, in conversations to others, only when situations require I have to refer/describe the third person who is a foreigner and also a stranger to me, provided I have some clues as to the nationality of that person (language, clothes, belongings, etc). Otherwise ( if I have no idea of the nationality ) I use gaijin or gaikokujin instead.

Naturally my friends and I both know each other's nationality so there's no need to call each other using those word.

The same can be said for Toyo-jin, I never use the word to directly call or refer my fellow Japanese friends. I use the word, only when I could not decide by looks whether the third person is Chinese, Korean or (even my fellow) Japanese.

<<off the topic>>

I would be willing to be that they would end up speaking Japanese all the time and your daughter while very possibly making a new friend wouldn't learn too much English.

I hope you didn't really mean that. Anyway, my daughter may be inspired by a teacher who takes the trouble to learn her own language to communicate with her people, who knows? *shrug*

samuraiwise, I think you're misreading my intent. I still thinking learning a language is always interesting, but too often in Japan I get cases of Japanese coworkers or someone who thinks you don't understand making comments about you in front of you. Not surprisingly, most Japanese people when confronted about it think the practice is rude, yet some continue to do it. Hence, I might consider studying to be not that useful, of course, beyond for every day living here.

gaijinalways-san, I just reacted to your rather strong dlivery which seemed to reflect - at the moment I thought so - your actual feelings toward Japan and its people.
Now I think I understood your intent and I found myself sympathizing with your situation. I honestly wish you better luck in the future, here in Japan.

Two persons from different culture, not both of them always have to learn each other's language to become friends, that I understand.
On the other hand, especially in the early stage of that very friendships, it would be far easier that at least one of us puts in some effort to learn the other language.
The first one who takes that step, in my opinion, deserves other's recognition.

So I want to give that recognition whoever takes the trouble to learn Japanese language, then in the same breath I have to admit that I have no right to make others do the same.ﾂ

 

[gaijinalways]

Actually, I wish to apologize to both Samraiwise and bakaKanadajin, I was just feeling a bit miffed with some lazy students. Actually, I always enjoy learning a phrase or two here, I just know I don't have a great memory and there are other things I'd rather do than bust my *** learning a language that I am unlikely to use outside of Japan. I am at times in awe of what some people are able to accomplish, but as William Spencer has alluded to, there is a 'linguistic pecking order', though as bakaKanadajin also posted, some people try to impress others with their amount of time in Japan (hope I don't start doing that, I am not impressed). Hey, even for my students, if they have the skill great, they may use it some day (some of them may not, kind of being domestic types), but it never hurts to stretch the brain cells a little, right?
William Spencer, give me a PM when or just before you come to Tokyo, I'll treat you to a beer if we can hook up.

 

[KirinMan]

Obeika, I am sorry. I didn't realized anybody could take what I wrote the way you did, anyway it's my fault. It must be my clumsy English which had you confused.

I must admit I took your statement here at face value and nothing else. Please accept my apologizes if I read them wrong. Your English is great.

hope you didn't really mean that. Anyway, my daughter may be inspired by a teacher who takes the trouble to learn her own language to communicate with her people, who knows? *shrug*

I took it in the context that it was written in your reply. Nothing more or less. I would like to pass on to you one thing though, I know of numerous people that "hired" English tutors for their children but because the "tutor" spoke excellent Japanese the students were not put into a situation where they found it necessary to use their English abilities.

Friendships grew but their English abilities stagnated. Once a student "knows" that their teacher understands and can explain themselves in Japanese they no longer work at improving their English and concenttrate on being able to directly translate what they hear. Instead of working at improving their overall understanding of the language, and getting over their "shyness" in using "spoken" English.

Naturally my friends and I both know each other's nationality so there's no need to call each other using those word.

I kind of expected that but as I wrote earlier I took what you said at face value, nothing else.

I apologize to you for any misunderstandings,

Let's start again.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

some people try to impress others with their amount of time in Japan

I think you raise an excellent point here. As was mentioned, there are those who spend alot of time in Japan and accumulate a decent amount of language/cultural knowledge, and those who refuse to. And just to clarify by 'refuse to' I'm not referring to ability level I'm just referring to that same attitude we talked about earlier where they expect the world to accomodate them at all times. But beyond that, within the 'learners' group, although I haven't met any of them, there are probably a few gaijin out there who specifically use their grasp of the language as some kind of status symbol over other gaijins.

From my point of view, this dynamic is the result of both parties. I think those who would respond to that kind of one-upmanship are probably learners themselves, so perhaps if they'd been studying a long time they would feel slightly belittled if someone was constantly correcting them and showing them up or something like that. So it's not just the stronger speaker who's creating the tension. But on the other hand, theres always tact, and someone who's strong in Japanese should correct and help others with the goal of helping that person improve and not necessarily showing off. Once again, that may all depend on whether that weaker learner thinks they're an expert and is fluffing up their chest for no reason.

I'm a beginner, I've definitely felt a small pang of jealousy when someone who's strong corrects me, but they've always been kind about it as far as I can remember and I've welcomed their corrections. If they were kinda snobby about it I think I'd be inclined to feel the same way as gaijinalways has pointed out. Likewise when I share what little knowledge I have I try not to be thorough but not condescending.

Since Japanese is so difficult to learn I think those who study it all consider the time they've spent to be precious and with the right mix of people you end up with group dynamics like this. It's probably like any skill learning group, being humble combined with trying your best is the attitude that's most well-received, no matter the skill level.

 

[gaijinalways]

But on the other hand, theres always tact, and someone who's strong in Japanese should correct and help others with the goal of helping that person improve and not necessarily showing off.

It's not just that, but also rather people belittling others when your skills are not up to the same level as theirs (and in my case I don't really care if they are or not). I'll give you an extreme example. In another forum I used to post on, I once was discussing a historical issue with the 'resident nationalist'. At some point, he posts in an English language forum links to a article in Japanese related to the issue. The other poster didn't include a translation. Later I mentioned something in the same thread, and I related that I don't read that much Japanese, and I quote" the other poster said that's your F...Ing problem. He continued to take me for task for not understanding evidence he wanted me to know (though cetainly if his position was half as strong as he claimed, he should be able to find something to back his claims in a mutualy understandable and the forum language).
Interesting, I would expect in such a forum most of the evidence should be given in English, and if a poster wants to give information in another language, he should be expected to provide a translation.. but some people have other ideas.