Surely the meaning of 'gaijin' is contextual?!

I think Glenski was looking for compromise in his life in Japan. He enjoys his "American-ness" but at the same time is willing to behave in a Japanese fashion as well. He sounds to me to be aiming for the middle of the road and I think that's great. As for going native, I think it's when people go over the top, it seems fake and immature and to me an insult to the "native" people.

yes compromise...and yes going over the top (gosh i have been there trying to be a native in japan!) esp. fake...non-japanese sumo wrestlers do the whole being native thing don't they...i have heard that sumoinc. is a little upset with how many foreigners there are? is this true?

perhaps it is the fragility of how the nation state constructs its own citzenry and then requires allegiance through people behaving with an amazing degree of homogenity. in australia there's a new ideology of being 'unaustralian' when one doesn't live up to norms and expectations of what the nation state imposes. there are seceral core australian values (i understand there are 8 core chinese values). have the core values of being japanese ever been articulated? i am sure writing haiku looking at the moon in autumn isn't actually one of them...
 
"Act Japanese", pugtm? Some of us, like goldiegirl explained, draw the line somewhere. You don't. Let's agree to disagree. Personally, I think a foreigner living in another country should adapt to certain things, but not to "go native" when it is clearly an obvious bit of fakery. How many Japanese people walk around daily in kimonos, for example? Not that many, and certainly more of the older set do, yet I know of a guy who is in his late 20s who feels the need to do that daily. Too weird and over the top for me.

Would you say that "going native" includes adopting all mannerisms like I've described? It would seem so. If I read you right, then I would have to reply that it most definitely strips away one's individuality. To consciously change one's unconscious mannerisms just "to fit in" is again going against the grain and over the top to me. And, for what? You call it respect, but why do people have to change their innate unconscious mannerisms to show respect for the country they're in? That pretty much slaps me in the face and says I don't respect Japan. I take offense to that.
 
"Act Japanese", pugtm? Some of us, like goldiegirl explained, draw the line somewhere. You don't. Let's agree to disagree. Personally, I think a foreigner living in another country should adapt to certain things, but not to "go native" when it is clearly an obvious bit of fakery. How many Japanese people walk around daily in kimonos, for example? Not that many, and certainly more of the older set do, yet I know of a guy who is in his late 20s who feels the need to do that daily. Too weird and over the top for me.
Would you say that "going native" includes adopting all mannerisms like I've described? It would seem so. If I read you right, then I would have to reply that it most definitely strips away one's individuality. To consciously change one's unconscious mannerisms just "to fit in" is again going against the grain and over the top to me. And, for what? You call it respect, but why do people have to change their innate unconscious mannerisms to show respect for the country they're in? That pretty much slaps me in the face and says I don't respect Japan. I take offense to that.

In my opinion some of the longer residents, one's I know and myself included as well, here in Japan go through a stage while living here of going "native" to a point.

However it also appears to me and for me as well, that that stage never is really long lived, somewhere along the line they, I, realized that it just wasnt right and that they were giving up too much of their own, my, identity in the process.

I would take offense as well at someone that says I dont respect Japan because I havent gone native. Personally I enjoy my uniqueness here, and don't want anything to change that. People that know me know this, and the ones that dont, well I truly don't give a d**n about what they think. It time time to get comfortable with that, but once the realization came upon me that this is as good as it is going to get, which also is bad at all, satisfaction followed like a breath of fresh air. I can testify that for me at least, the grass is greener on my side of the fence then on the perverbial "other side"
 
"How many Japanese people walk around daily in kimonos, for example? Not that many, and certainly more of the older set do, yet I know of a guy who is in his late 20s who feels the need to do that daily. Too weird and over the top for me.
But thats not going native that is going way over the top. There is a difference. But for example if he wore a kimono during a festival only once or twice a year i see nothing wrong with that. As for losing your identity if you fear you will lose it by living somewhere and acting a certain way you dont sound too sure about your identitity. Identity consists of more than mannerisms it is history and background and can never be changed. I doubt your eyes will all of a sudden slant over and you will not shrink and lose all your body hair just because you cover your mouth when you laugh or you go to an onsen. Plus someone like me wants to partake deeply in the culture and immerse ourselfs in it completely at least for a time or even for life. and sometimes when you come from a ambiguous culture like americas it's not such a bad thing. Some hate their identity and want to lose it like that guy with the kimono. But really i pity him.
 
pugtm, wow, what a slap in the face to the Japanese or any other country...you're main reason for "going native" is that you don't like your own countries culture?! Seems very shallow to me.
 
Hmm, yes the 'over the top' people sometimes drive me nuts. Actually the one-upmanship over linguistic abilities is sometimes boring as well. Another forum I posted on got their panties in a knot because I once used cross-switiching in my post (something I generally don't do), yet several members practice it regularly when they brag about their language skills and how 'well adjusted' they are to living here. What generally comes across instead is how shallow they are; with girls and making a living being their main considerations. Then again, can't say I never thought about those two topics, they just don't take up 95% of all my conversations (well for that forum, girls).
 
a valid point.
But i still hate it when foreigners live in another country and refuse to act normally and like natives. If you live in that country respect their customs. if i lived in japan i would try my hardest to act Japanese out of respect. Just like i expect any Japanese person living in Israel or the united states to act Israeli or American.

You do realize that not every Japanese can bear the sight of a gaijin trying desperately hard to become one of them right? I personally know a few Japanese who would "prefer" gaijin to stay as who they are: A gaijin. I can see where you're coming from with the idea of trying hard to assimilate into the culture around you. I also agree it's a way to show respect to people around you. However, in a close society like Japan's, some Japanese would rather have you standing outside of their circle of life. It is more comfortable for them that way.
 
pugtm, wow, what a slap in the face to the Japanese or any other country...you're main reason for "going native" is that you don't like your own countries culture?! Seems very shallow to me.
it's not that i dislike my own but that i like theirs. It's all about how you interpret it. I wasen't saying that that part appllies to me.
Hmm, yes the 'over the top' people sometimes drive me nuts. Actually the one-upmanship over linguistic abilities is sometimes boring as well. Another forum I posted on got their panties in a knot because I once used cross-switiching in my post (something I generally don't do), yet several members practice it regularly when they brag about their language skills and how 'well adjusted' they are to living here. What generally comes across instead is how shallow they are; with girls and making a living being their main considerations. Then again, can't say I never thought about those two topics, they just don't take up 95% of all my conversations (well for that forum, girls).
we have these here too and in israel and everywhere in the world. I specifically hate the otaku kind who really dont have a clue but pretend they do. Me and my friends always get good laughs at anime and manga conventions(my number 1 reason for going). In fact my sister is like that. Here entire understanding of japanese culture comes from naruto. She even tried to use the honorifics at home. she only knew 2 san and chan and used them innapropraitly. I finally got annoyed and told her that untill she can hold a conversation in japanese for 30 minutes straight she isn't allowed to use them. Of course unlike me who is studying japanese in my free time she is too lazy so i am saved that annoyance for a long time to come.
 
I think you can immerse yourself in a culture without having to be a copy cat. It reminds me of whites dressed in black face. It seems outrageous now. Enjoy the culture, but you certainly don't have to turn Japanese.
 
you certainly don't have to. some people just want to.
I also think that the Japanese need to get off their high horses about this kind of stuff. They don't own the word eh or poetry or swords or anything else. In fact many customs came from china so who are they to complain. I could equally complain that their music industry is a Japanese version of America's or that they eat at Macdonalds. I have at school orientals telling me they are sick of their respective cultures and try to be "black" or "American" i don't complain. If that is what they want they should go for it.
Not trying to be rude just some observations.
 
Putgm,
I'm sorry I was ranting a bit earlier. My point was that these guys do have some language ability, and live in Japan, but they look down on others who are not Japanophiles like them.

Yes there is a problem in Japan where things that are borrowed become 'supposedly' better.:-)
 
Putgm,
I'm sorry I was ranting a bit earlier. My point was that these guys do have some language ability, and live in Japan, but they look down on others who are not Japanophiles like them.
Nothing wrong with being anything even a japanophile. I am one. we all are to a degree otherwise we wouldn't be arguing stupid stuff like this. But you're also right. each person has to live his own life. Japanophiles are no better than anybody else and i sincerely hope i didn't come across as superior. If i did i apologize.
 
Pugtm, no worries mate, it's not you that comes across that way. I was talking about members of another forum who start bleating when you mention anything related with discrimination, xenophobia, etc.
 
Japanophiles are no better than anybody else and i sincerely hope i didn't come across as superior. If i did i apologize

Quick "my two yen here kind of response"......

They are no better nor worse, they are who they are, neither is greater or worse.

I just think that many people misunderstand them, and they others that have been living and working here in Japan for a lot longer than many of them have been alive.
 
that's certainly been an interesting discussion regarding going native...the comment about language competitiveness certainly resonates with me. there's a book by james f english called 'the economy of prestige: prizes, awards, and the circulation of cultural value' in which it is argued that ability has gradually become something to be awarded prizes rather than merely accepted. i'd like to understand the reason for so many speech contests in japan (english and japanese) and in australia too in which the winner gets to go to japan. der if the person has won a spoeech contest for being able to deliver a speech in fluent japanese, why reward them with a trip to japan? is that the real contest? but isn't language ability one way that gaijin can exert power over other gaijin? since i am a japanese language teacher who's interested in language learning and development (i see myself as an advanced japanese language learner), my personal view is yeah there are going to be people better than i.

i can appreciate the sentiments and emotions involved in this going native issue, but there doesn't seem that expectation in much of japanese society. there seems to be some exceptions which have been discussed earlier such as some workplaces and immediate family situations. what is japan going to do when it runs out of children to populate the country and begins to import gaijin...anyone like to speculate on that in terms of the level of pressure to 'go native'? in australia, i'd argue that there is a mid range pressure to at least fit into the dominant view.

cheers
 
My speculation is this...the acutal first "imported gajin" will not be expected to be "native" but the children they have in Japan will. I can only say that as I am married to a Japanese man and I am not required to "be Japanese", however our potential children will carry the expectation of being more Japanese. It's not important to family if I actually learn to speak Japanese, but I have been led to understand that our children should. That's just my situation.
 
The problem is when people start using language ability as a gauge to test whether you are 'worthy' or not (of belonging to their community or staying in that country). Everyone learns languages differently, and what some people deem as fluent leaves a lot to be desired as sometimes they don't seem to have an ability to use logic in that language, which to me tells me they really aren't that fluent.

Languages are skills, that's all they are. Sadly, you get English language forums where some of the members think knowing Japanese is more importnat than posting readable and defendable arguements in English. Of course their being Japanophiles seem to go hand and hand with that at times, to the point of being an obsession.

Sorry, I'm not into obsessions, but moderation.
 
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I think that some Japanese have a certain image of what foreigners are all about and should do, and this may turn them off people trying to become 'Japanese' and may prevent 'gaijin' from fully integrating. Approaching Japanese culture in your own way is one thing, but trying to become Japanese is another thing. It's like a tiger trying to change its stripes, it seems unatural.

A few Japanese folks I've met were sometimes (completely unintentionally) blanketing in their remarks and thinking and I'm NOT by any means criticizing them, what I'm saying is that by contrast we politically correct and overly-sensitized Westerners with our high immigration influx levels and cultural exposure have distanced ourselves from some very basic stereotypes and half-truths that a culturally homogenous and low-immigration influx country may still have regarding foreigners.

I had a black friend from England who was told quite frankly that immigrants ran faster than native Englishmen and this was why England excelled in some sports. The guy was just trying to compliment him on his country's sports successes and meant no harm. In a press conference the president of Pride Fighting Championships told an African competitor that he'd love to have a Pride event in Africa, but only if he could watch this fighter fight a giraffe in the grasslands. Again, he was just trying to humour the fighter based on traditional stereotypes and what he knew of Africa.

There are more examples but, my point IS, I think some Japanese feel Japanese culture is definitely something for Japanese people and others should enjoy their own cultures with equal levels of enthusiasim. The two are very different. They find other cultures fascinating, there are more documentaries and travels shows on Japanese TV than you can shake a stick at, and outbound travel is a booming industry.

So for a gaijin to dabble and even get fairly far along in Japanese culture is something they applaud. However beyond this, the idea of a landed immigrant fully integrating linguistically, culturally, etc., and becoming Japanese when they're clearly not is strange to them, why abandon your own interesting and colourful culture and how can you hope to become Japanese in one lifetime? This is the essence of trying hard, anyone who's seemingly traded in their culture for another will seem strange. The idea of switching-over is something we're accustomed to in the West as many people aspire to live here, but this concept may still be odd to others.

Based on my experience, the ones who 'hurt' and try to hard, are usually Western-born. Here lies the difference. You don't see as many Indian, French, Turkish, African.. whatever.. Japanophiles as you do Western-born ones. Japanophilia seems to be a largely Western trend much like the strong Americanization of Japanese pop culture, its almost symbiotic. This may be because again, Western culture is consumer based and we don't really have cultural experiences of our own that are centuries and centuries old to cling to. Westerners are kind of the wine-tasters of world culture.

So within this arena what you may have is a group of mostly Western-born Japan-heads seeking out quick and complete cultural integration and on the other side Japanese people saying, hey, whats wrong with your own culture you can't seriously think you're Japanese, you're obviously 'this' or you're 'that'. From here theres a trickle down effect with varying levels of intensity.
 
What bothers me the most isn't how the Japanese view me but how they view my children. I was born in American. My children (who are half Japanese but look VERY American) were born here. But I see it all the time how rudely some Japanese treat my kids! It's like some Japanese people punish my kids for having different colored hair. And what do my kids think? They can't understand it. Why is it that the only country and culture that they know sometimes refuses to call them part of their own?
How do you comfort a child who has just been told by a fellow Japanese person to "Go back to America where you belong?"
 
the same way as when people here told me to go back to Israel and die. or the same way as when my parents were told that in the soviet union. Or the same way as when i was also told that Hitler should have finished me off.
Though i am sorry for your children. How old are they? NO matter what make sure they don't grow up bitter. And that they know they are better than people who make stupid remarks like that.
 
I also think that the Japanese need to get off their high horses about this kind of stuff.

Unless I read the point of your post wrong....

I noticed this and wanted to reply that it really isnt the Japanese that are on their "high horses" here about this topic but the "gaijin" that are making the observation about other "gaijin" going native.

It's a "gajin" kind of thing, I personally heard of any Japanese people making comments or complaints about this issue, because in my opinion, they will always view the "gaijin" as nothing other than that.
 
But thats not going native that is going way over the top. There is a difference. But for example if he wore a kimono during a festival only once or twice a year i see nothing wrong with that.
I think we need to hear what you think is "going native". I for one am very curious.

As for losing your identity if you fear you will lose it by living somewhere and acting a certain way you dont sound too sure about your identitity.
Thank you again for another slap in the face. Or perhaps you have misunderstood me. I hate armchair psychologists.

I do not fear anything of the sort. Why should I lose it at all, though? Why adopt things that are unconsciously expressed? I don't think you've really addressed this issue at all.

Identity consists of more than mannerisms it is history and background and can never be changed.
I was only talking about the unconscious things, so please stay on topic. How do you feel about a foreigner who adopts many of the mannerisms that are unconsciously expressed in another country?

Plus someone like me wants to partake deeply in the culture and immerse ourselfs in it completely at least for a time or even for life.
Back to my question above... what do you consider "immersing" yourself in the culture and "going native"? Immersing for life sure sounds like going native to me, but I am open to hearing what your definitions are.

and sometimes when you come from a ambiguous culture like americas it's not such a bad thing. Some hate their identity and want to lose it like that guy with the kimono. But really i pity him.
I pity him, too, but I don't think you have really fully understood my point. I can't make it any clearer, so I'm not going to try.

I am curious about why you wrote "when you come from a ambiguous culture like americas it's not such a bad thing"? Aside from the fact that I think you've used the word ambiguous incorrectly, are you implying that a culture like Japan's is a bad thing?
 
The problem is when people start using language ability as a gauge to test whether you are 'worthy' or not (of belonging to their community or staying in that country).

this is an important point in terms of how gaijin exert power over other gaijin. i say this in the context of coming to japan as a sojourner (long or short term) perhaps not as a tourist (since tourists are dismissed aren't they?) and not a perhaps as an immigrant (though there are of course many cases of people immigrating to japan and going through the social and legal transformation of becoming japanese. [i think i need to be extremely careful in this list as to making my point...]. i guess both sojounrer and immigrant at first has very little power in terms of in-country and i suppose as human beings we look for ways to exert power in our diverse relationships. tell me if i am totally off with this!!! so japanese language proficiency could be one constructed benchmark that is used as a sort of currency to show off who's boss, so to speak. i guess the point that gaijinalways is making is that to become a member of a group of expats let's say there are gatekeepers.

 
while the topic of going native is fascinating, may i move off topic and ask about how gaijin interact with other gaijin. i realise that this topic has been addressed elsewhere in other threads but that's what i am really interested in. the comments so far about how gaijin exert power over other gaijin through japanese language ability, i reckon have merely scratched the surface. what happens when gaijin come together? is it merely japan bashing or how good it is? one-upmanship about how long in japan, what foods can be eaten etc. or something more subtle and perhaps sinister? i want good juicy post here!
 
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It's not juicy but anyway I was shopping for books written in English while in Tokyo and a older gentleman came over and introduced himself and asked if we could talk for a while. He was Dutch and in Japan on business and he was missing his family. He said that he just wanted to talk with someone who wasn't Japanese for a while even though as he said English wasn't his native language. We talked and the one thing that we both had in common was the neither of us could read or speak Japanese. That really drew us together. It's such a hard thing to deal with, you feel stupid everyday. As for other people who I know and are westerners living in Japan, many times they make me feel stupid too by slipping in numerous Japanese words into an otherwise English conversation. I hate that more than anything. Never has a Japanese aquaintance ever done that; they speak in English the whole time and don't pepper the conversation with Japanese. They know I don't know, they don't need to prove it to me.....
 
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