zuotengdazuo
Sempai
- 8 Dec 2019
- 830
- 19
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- #51
But this example 家に着いたとき、弟はテレビを観ていた。is 発見, right? And you said the bold part in 十香が呼ぶと、影になっていた廊下の先から、ゆっくりとした足音が響いてきた。and 瞬間ーーいつの間にやら開放感に溢れていた教室の外から、折紙が現れる。are the same usage as the watching TV example, if I understand correctly. But now you say they are not 発見.Again, isn't it just an example of AときB where B is a state (e.g. 家に着いたとき、弟はテレビを観ていた。)?
No. Think about a case, for example, 家に着いたとき、弟はテレビを観ていた。だが、私はすぐに自分の部屋に入ったので、弟が家にいることさえ知らなかった。. The speaker even didn't realize that his/her brother was at home, i.e., he/she didn't know his/her brother was watching TV at the time. Thus, 観ていた can't be 発見 here, since it's just a description of a past event. Indeed 観ていた could have a nuance of 発見, as bentenmusume-san pointed out, but it totally depends on the context after all, and the nuance is not provided by ~ていた form (well, at least not only by it).But this example 家に着いたとき、弟はテレビを観ていた。is 発見, right?
I don't think it can be 発見 because the subject is 荷物, not a person. Right?Just out of curiosity, do you think that 到着していた is also 発見 in 荷物が届いたとき、すでに倉庫に到着していた田中係長は手際よく荷物を運び入れた。?
Yes, but other than that, the past progressive tense is also possible.So for 1 and 2 (or other instances of "~ていた+noun"), I just need to think of the underlined parts as past perfect tense or 大過去 (the action in the ていた form had happened before another past action and the state resulted from the action in 大過去 continues (or may be over depending on the context)), which is the normal function of ~ていた, right?
Then, how about the following ones?I don't think it can be 発見 because the subject is 荷物, not a person. Right?
I think 傘を忘れていた is 発見 but the two ~ていたs in the second sentence are not. Right?Then, how about the following ones?
雨が降り始めたとき、傘を忘れていたのに気づいた。
会社に着いたとき、すでに倉庫に到着していた田中係長が手際よく荷物を運び入れていた。
If "The subject is not a person" is not a key, what do you think is the key for 発見?"The subject is not a person" can be a key?
So for 1 and 2 (or other instances of "~ていた+noun"), I just need to think of the underlined parts as past perfect tense or 大過去 (the action in the ていた form had happened before another past action and the state resulted from the action in 大過去 continues (or may be over depending on the context)), which is the normal function of ~ていた, right?
And does the above holds true for the ~ていた at the end of a sentence in the narrative part in novel? I mean the ~ていた at the end of a sentence in the narrative part in novel is just either 大過去 (e.g. 家に着くと、窓が開いていた) or past progressive tense, right?Yes, but other than that, the past progressive tense is also possible.
Yes, that's my intention.I think 傘を忘れていた is 発見 but the two ~ていたs in the second sentence are not. Right?
I already wrote it.If "The subject is not a person" is not a key, what do you think is the key for 発見?
it totally depends on the context after all
It can be "present state" or "present progressive tense". As we have been talking about repeatedly so far, the past form is commonly used to descrive "the present event" in narrative part of novel (narrative past), as opposed to "historical present", no?And does the above holds true for the ~ていた at the end of a sentence in the narrative part in novel? I mean the ~ていた at the end of a sentence in the narrative part in novel is just either 大過去 (e.g. 家に着くと、窓が開いていた) or past progressive tense, right?
Yes.Are you saying that ~ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel can be not only 大過去 (e.g. 家に着くと、窓が開いていた) or past progressive tense, but also "present state" or "present progressive tense" (it can be any of the four, depending on the context)?
Those are both "narrative past". The present event/scene is described in the past form. If those are 士道's spoken words, it should まるでゴーストタウンみたいになってる! and 波紋ができてる!, respectively, and まるでゴーストタウンみたいになってた! and 波紋ができてた! don't work well (波紋ができた! is OK as discover or completion, though).But it seems all the examples of this kind of ~ていた I have asked about in different threads are referring to the past, not present?
For example, do you think 波紋ができてい and まるでゴーストタウンのようになっていた in the thread below are present state?
You seem to say those two sentences are examples of the ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel referring to "present state". So do you have any examples of ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel referring to "present progressive tense"?Those are both "narrative past". The present event/scene is described in the past form. If those are 士道's spoken words, it should まるでゴーストタウンみたいになってる! and 波紋ができてる!, respectively, and まるでゴーストタウンみたいになってた! and 波紋ができてた! don't work well (波紋ができた! is OK as discover or completion, though).
That's what I meant.You seem to say those two sentences are examples of the ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel referring to "present state".
ティーカップを回収していた。So do you have any examples of ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel referring to "present progressive tense"?
No, I don't think so. Isn't the context enough? How do you do when reading English books? Do you read with checking the tense of each sentence?And when we come across a ていた at the end of sentence in narrative part of novel, how do we tell if it is 大過去 (e.g. 家に着くと、窓が開いていた), past progressive tense, present state or present progressive tense? (Are there any other clues than context?)
In the sentence 十香が呼ぶと、影になっていた廊下の先から、ゆっくりとした足音が響いてきた。, isn't 影になっていた a present state?And when ていた is used in a relative clause modifying a noun, why can't it be present state or present progressive tense?
No, I don't check the tense of each sentence. OK. I see your point.No, I don't think so. Isn't the context enough? How do you do when reading English books? Do you read with checking the tense of each sentence?
OK. I see what you mean now. But according to post #55 and 54, you seem to agree that when ていた is used in a relative clause modifying a noun, the ~ていた can only be 大過去 or past progressive tense?In the sentence 十香が呼ぶと、影になっていた廊下の先から、ゆっくりとした足音が響いてきた。, isn't 影になっていた a present state?
Sorry again. Actually the reason why I tried to apply the idea "background" to ~ていた in the first place is to simplify the issue, not to complicate it.Sigh. You're still overcomplicating this.
For instance, 時間を持て余す is not "to have much time". It more likely refers to a state "not to know how/for what purpose to use time". Thus, in your example, the subject didn't know how/for what purpose to use his strength/energy, but now the state is over, i.e., he knows how/for what purpose to use it.
Hi. I just have a small question about what was said as quoted above. You said the state "not to know how/for what purpose to use time" is over now. So isn't 持て余していた力 the only correct version there? So why are 持て余している力, 持て余した力 or 持て余す力 also correct in that context?Similarly, although the nuances are different, it works well all for 持て余していた力, 持て余している力, 持て余した力 or 持て余す力. However, 陽菜さんにもらう勇気 doesn't since it's used only for future.
Yes, I know that. But doesn't 持て余す mean "he doesn't know what to do with excessive power"? If 持て余している力 is used, doesn't that mean "he still doesn't know what to do with excessive power" (but he knows now, actually)?The subject has just realized how to use it right now, and he still has the power he wants to use fully.