Why aren't English teachers teaching universal English?

bakaKanadajin · 3 Jul 2007

For youngsters I do think its important to clear pronunciation issues up as quickly as possible. For older people however, the katakana pronunciation is definitely discouraged but really, its just how Japanese people speak English in some cases. Much like any foreigner, its their unique accent. If its heavy enough to confuse communicative ability then its an issue. If they throw in the occasional an-do instead of 'and' or sa-lra-da instead of 'salad', but the ability to get a point across does not suffer, I don't tend to break their train of thought for the sake of pronunciation. Instead I let it go for the time being and then give them some tongue twisters or something after to take home.

KirinMan · 3 Jul 2007

If they throw in the occasional an-do instead of 'and' or sa-lra-da instead of 'salad', but the ability to get a point across does not suffer, I don't tend to break their train of thought for the sake of pronunciation.

Which happens to be more important in the long run in my opinion as well. If someone gets too overly zealous in their impression on what proper pronunciation should be they will probably end up losing their students natural enthusiasm for learning and end up hating the language.

The point is communication and if the listener can understand what the speaker is saying without too much difficulty then I say let it be.

Hell there are plenty of "native" English speakers whose English I have a hard time understanding as well. Ever hear someone from New England or Southern Louisiana or Mississippi?

JimmySeal · 3 Jul 2007

If Reisender's anectdote took place in an Elementary school, then what I have said doesn't apply, but considering that the student was apparently being asked to spell a word, I'm guessing it was at a point where they were supposed to know the alphabet, and that means knowing that the letter Z is called "zee" in English, not "zetto."

A typical Spanish teacher won't let a student spell "gato," as "gee, ay, tee, oh," so why should an English teacher let a student spell "maze" as "emu, ee, zetto, ii?"

pika la · 3 Jul 2007

JimmySeal said:
I'm guessing it was at a point where they were supposed to know the alphabet, and that means knowing that the letter Z is called "zee" in English, not "zetto."

Well... In Canada Z is "zed" so isn't "zetto" close enough?
Canadian English is also English.

KirinMan · 3 Jul 2007

pika la said:
Well... In Canada Z is "zed" so isn't "zetto" close enough?
Canadian English is also English.

Good point, didnt know that either, thanks for sharing that.

JimmySeal · 3 Jul 2007

pika la said:
Well... In Canada Z is "zed" so isn't "zetto" close enough?
Canadian English is also English.

If you look at my earlier posts, you'll see that I consider "zed" and "zetto" to be very different things.

pika la · 3 Jul 2007

Okay okay sorry.
I still see no problem with saying "zetto" if it's easier for them, it sounds the same to me. And it's not like it's the ONLY thing they pronounce wrong. I personally wouldn't correct their EVERY mispronounciation...because that would take up most of the class, no? ^^ Not that I'm a teacher or anything, so surely I know not better ne.

Anyways, nevermind.

KirinMan · 3 Jul 2007

JimmySeal said:
If you look at my earlier posts, you'll see that I consider "zed" and "zetto" to be very different things.

To a native English speaker maybe, to a Japanese learner of English hardly very different at all. "zed" would come out most likely as "zeddo" and that we all know is similar to the double "tt" being prounounced as "d" so it ends up being the same thing.

One needs to remember we are talking about Japanese people and their pronunciation of English not natives here. Makes a huge difference, particularly for begining and low intermediate learners.

Better to let them talk than pick apart their pronunciation and make them learn to hate learning or studying spoken English.

Glenski · 4 Jul 2007

Pet peeve of mine is mispronunciation of "bag". One would expect "bagu", but it comes out as "baku", even in katakana. shrug

JimmySeal · 4 Jul 2007

Obeika said:
To a native English speaker maybe, to a Japanese learner of English hardly very different at all. "zed" would come out most likely as "zeddo" and that we all know is similar to the double "tt" being prounounced as "d" so it ends up being the same thing.

Better to let them talk than pick apart their pronunciation and make them learn to hate learning or studying spoken English.

The students I encounter all say "zetto" distinctly, never "zeddo." That's because they're not trying to say "zed." They're applying their kokugo romaji lessons to English class, and as you've already said, romaji is not English, so neither is "zetto."

I have met full-grown, "fluent" Japanese speakers of English who speak in a long stream of katakana and it's impossible to listen to for more than 30 seconds. Communication is not the only goal. It's not enough to speak "well enough" to be understood. There are terrific reasons why trying to eliminate the Japanese accent should be an important goal, and in order to do so, bad habits must be broken early. And it's entirely possible to do that without turning the student off of English, if it's done right.

Pet peeve of mine is mispronunciation of "bag". One would expect "bagu", but it comes out as "baku", even in katakana. shrug

That irritates me too. It may be a blending of バッグ and バックパック, or maybe the word was coined when double g wasn't commonly pronounced in loanwords.

reisender · 4 Jul 2007

JimmySeal said:
If Reisender's anectdote took place in an Elementary school, then what I have said doesn't apply, but considering that the student was apparently being asked to spell a word, I'm guessing it was at a point where they were supposed to know the alphabet, and that means knowing that the letter Z is called "zee" in English, not "zetto."
A typical Spanish teacher won't let a student spell "gato," as "gee, ay, tee, oh," so why should an English teacher let a student spell "maze" as "emu, ee, zetto, ii?"

This was a 20 or 30 something woman who was spelling.
I think in every country in the world except the US, Z = Zed.
This goes for a lot of spelling too. But if a student writes/spells "color", I don't tell them it's wrong or I can't understand it until they add a 'u'.

Seeing your Spanish example reminds me of how some people will throw in different languages pronunciation of the roman alphabet. Like D = 'deh/day'.
I usually say "that is how you say it in German, in English it's 'dee'."

If a student said "zetto" to me, and I felt the need, I'd correct him/her with "zed" rather than "zee". This corrects the t-d and katakana pronunciation rather than ignoring the problem and giving them them the easy way out.

Why aren't English teachers teaching universal English?

bakaKanadajin

先輩

KirinMan

後輩

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

pika la

先輩

KirinMan

後輩

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

pika la

先輩

KirinMan

後輩

Glenski

Just me

JimmySeal

Tubthumper

reisender

後輩

Similar threads