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Why aren't English teachers teaching universal English?

pinson27

Kouhai
8 Dec 2006
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Ok, do you guys ever teach japanese about how people speak in different ways? Example: Some hispanics don't speak exactly and with the same accent as white people but we're still americans.

I'm from usa but Many of the Japanese people i've met are mean and racist just beccause i don't speak like Their image of what english should be.

I don't get it. Then i keep saying to them. I'm from america! and they just see me like a monkey or something. Since they seem pretty ignorant , i nicely explain to them about Americans like me... and yet they still don't think i'm american and thus they don't want to talk to me.

It's tiring to be ignored and hated by all the ones i've tried to be friends with. Especially the ones who are already good at English, they seem to be the most arrogant.

SO, are you guys teaching them about culture and diversity of peoples of english speaking countries OR encourage them to find out things for themselves? Or is that not even part of your teaching plan?
It's not helping that they learn english if they will ignore a big chunk of english speakers just because we don't look or speak exactly like the examples that you give them.
 
Oh by the way.... by teaching universal english. i mean just the acceptance of people who may speak it different.
 
Maybe the problem is that you are approaching people saying you will teach them English while what you want is friends, not students to teach?

Language is a communication tool and what really matters is to be intelligible - so that people can understand each other. Sometimes dialects and accents make it hard to understand. So most people who want to learn the language want to learn the "standard". Later, when they are more advanced, they might want to get exposed to diversity, but it is not a norm.

So please don't critisize the people who want to learn standard English. If you say you are American and you can help them learn English, it is natural that people think you would speak standard English. Don't blame them because you are not offering them what they are looking for.

You keep saying you can teach English when you actually are looking for friends to communicate, maybe people who can tell about Japan or teach you Japanese. As long as you are "advertising" yourself as an English teacher, people who are mainly interestedin learning English are coming to you, to learn standard English, not to become your friend, nor to learn about the different cultures within the US. Then naturally they are disappointed because you are not offering what they are after.

Why don't you change your approach?
You say you are Hispanic American, do you speak Spanish as well? If so, you can tell people you can teach a little bit of Spanish.
You can tell people that you can teach English if they don't mind Hispanic accent. You can tell them that America has many different ethnicity/culture within it, and you're going to tell about that, especially about Hispanic people and their culture, history, etc. if they're interested.
And if you really want friends, you have to say you're looking for friends. You have to tell them you are there to have friends, not to teach English to them.
 
Growing up in a country doesn't automatically make one a native speaker of that country's language. If one's own language has been influenced or augmented by other sources to the extent that it's by and large no longer representative of the rest of the average speakers, then I could see some confusion arising, especially with outside observers who are keenly studying and picking that person's language apart. That's a long-winded and politically correct way to say, those having heavy accents and blended speech clearly originating from non English-speaking countries will naturally be noticed by ESL students.

For example, Patois, the Jamaican dialect or Jamaican 'accent' which is known to the West through reggae music and movies, is 'English' but its also not really English. The pronunciation and vocabulary differs largely from that which you'd find in an English dictionary. Where do we draw the line? Or take, for example, Creole. It's a derivative of French used in the southern US 'bayou' regions but its not called French any longer, it has its own designation.

Also consider that 99% of the English teachers in Japan are University educated, so the proficiency level of almost all foreigners found in a teaching environment (I know it varies but, in general) is quite uniform relative to the general population back home. It represents perhaps only the top 15% - 30% of the country of origin's population at large, depending on post-secondary enrollment statistics of course. But in Japan, when we look at the same group of people, we're suddenly talking about nearly ALL the native English speakers the Japanese people will ever encounter. It's misrepresentative but not on purpose, its just a function of English teaching programs and their hiring requirements.

I'm not surprised the Japanese have a slightly skewed view of English speakers, they aren't really exposed to a representative cross section over there and its no ones fault really. I wouldn't take it personally.
 
A little more information is needed here. Under what circumstances are you approaching Japanese people to teach them English? Over the internet or in person or somewhere else? I find it hard to believe that they would get upset or treat you "like a monkey" because you speak English with a Hispanic accent (if that's the case).

If the level of pride in Japan over the Kansai dialect is any indication, Japanese appreciate and are fascinated by different dialects. But obviously Japanese students of English will want to learn standard English as they see on television or movies, and once they become better maybe they will become interested in your style of speaking. What that is, however, is hard to make out from your message because you didn't really give any details.
 
Another problem is what does one consider "standard" English to be?

Since English is spoken all over the world now a days, people from India speak standard English, and so do people from Australia as well, along with a host of other countries as well.
 
Another problem is what does one consider "standard" English to be?
Since English is spoken all over the world now a days, people from India speak standard English, and so do people from Australia as well, along with a host of other countries as well.

Of course there's no such thing as a "standard" dialect of English, but I think it's a fair assumption that foreign students of English are most heavily influenced by American English because it's the largest and most powerful native English speaking country in the world and the vast majority of English speaking films and television come from there.
 
Another problem is what does one consider "standard" English to be?

Since English is spoken all over the world now a days, people from India speak standard English, and so do people from Australia as well, along with a host of other countries as well.

Although I used the word "standard", it is not "standard" in the academic sense or even generic idea, but it means something specific in this particular thread.
The "standard" English I mean here is the English one may normally hear in flims, TV, songs, Eikaiwa schools, or those audio materials used at school, etc. What people (especially those studying English) thinks "standard" in their perception. And again, here the "people" means the Japanese people OP approached saying "I teach you English".
 
Ok, do you guys ever teach japanese about how people speak in different ways? Example: Some hispanics don't speak exactly and with the same accent as white people but we're still americans.
I'm from usa but Many of the Japanese people i've met are mean and racist just beccause i don't speak like Their image of what english should be.
I don't get it. Then i keep saying to them. I'm from america! and they just see me like a monkey or something. Since they seem pretty ignorant , i nicely explain to them about Americans like me... and yet they still don't think i'm american and thus they don't want to talk to me.

It's tiring to be ignored and hated by all the ones i've tried to be friends with. Especially the ones who are already good at English, they seem to be the most arrogant.
.

I would really love to know what situation you are in. Do you understand Japanese as well?

Do you feel like you are ignored because people dont understand YOU? Have you ever taken a look into the mirror and thought about what you could do to fix the situation that you are in?

SO, are you guys teaching them about culture and diversity of peoples of english speaking countries OR encourage them to find out things for themselves? Or is that not even part of your teaching plan?
It's not helping that they learn english if they will ignore a big chunk of english speakers just because we don't look or speak exactly like the examples that you give them

Lastly this really comes across as if it coming from someone who isnt really familiar with the system here and the students within the system.

If you need some advice or help on how to create a better enviroment for yourself why not ask. I am sure that besides myself others here are more than willing to help you out.

Sounds to me at least that you somehow got off on the wrong foot here and are taking too many things personally.

I hope you come back and respond to this too. Good luck.
 
Of course there's no such thing as a "standard" dialect of English, but I think it's a fair assumption that foreign students of English are most heavily influenced by American English because it's the largest and most powerful native English speaking country in the world and the vast majority of English speaking films and television come from there.

As far as the context of this thread goes, the common diction found in movies and television IS the standard in my opinion. For the sake of definition, standard is a very relative term in linguistics, because language is something self-generated and has as many perspectives are there are people in the world. But, that being said, it is entirely possible to gather a group of people and experiences together that are very similar and have a near-homogenous sampling. I believe this is what happens in Japanese English schools. Like I said in the other post I made, you get university educated people whose vocabulary and grammatical command are in the top percentile, along with a (somewhat rotating) but very similar age bracket, and suddenly you have alot of people from one diverse country speaking the same English. I heard very little variation among the Americans I met overseas. It wasn't as if I had a southerner with a drawl, a New Englander with the Mass. accent, a 'Noo Yawker' and a California valley girl all in one place. Everyone just sounded the same. There was some variation but not to the same problematic extent that the OP is discussing. Same with the Canadians, as a group I'm aware there exists a 'Canadian accent' but every Canadian I met spoke the same. Australians and New Zealanders too. The largest variation was amongst those from the UK.
 
I think this is the question of linguistic ownership, which itself is by no means unproblematic.

Does a language (English) have a strong association with a particular community of speakers (ethnic, regional, historical, etc. ), such that these speakers can claim ownership of the language?

English is now widely spoken beyond a population of these speakers, but do others have their share of a say in the defining of linguistic norms?

It's just a fact of life that language discriminates against its speakers. It's usually the latter group intimated by the "norms" someone else has defined for you. Take a look at this forum, for example. :D
 
What irritates me is the inconsistency of English teaching in Japan - especially with slang and pronunciation.
 
Why does pinson always create long, rambling posts and then abandon them as soon as everyone has asked him for more examples or specifics? Watch him post another similar topic in a few weeks that cites English teachers and Japanese prejudice for his problems relating with Japanese people and then abandon it once again.
 
are you guys teaching them about culture and diversity of peoples of english speaking countries OR encourage them to find out things for themselves? Or is that not even part of your teaching plan?
Only the people on the JET program come close to doing this, but that's because they are ALTs, not full teachers, and the main goal of the JET program is internationalization, not teaching English. The rest of us focus on communicative skills and grammar.

by teaching universal english. i mean just the acceptance of people who may speak it different.
A far cry from what others have been discussing here. "Universal English" = "standard English" Neither one exists, anyway. Movie chatter is conversation to a degree, but it is written for effect, not reality.

Do most EFL teachers teach the acceptance of people? No, we teach the acceptance of various English forms. That's the closest we come to your version of "universal English". I'm American, and I run into cases of British English all over -- in textbooks, from students that have done homestays or had British English teachers, from teachers with English training by British, etc. -- and whenever there is a need, I point out the differences, and continue with my lesson.

I also teach TOEIC prep courses, and as of last year, there are more than just American accents (the clear type, sorry, pinson), so I point that out to students, but what more can I do? I'm no linguist or impersonator who can switch my voice from one accent to another to demonstrate to students. I can only find some examples online and dish them out, but it's more efficient to do things in just the one form of English I can find on CDs, or mine.

You must realize that EFL teachers in Japan face an enormous hurdle. Most of us are here to teach some sort of conversation skill, and students are not programmed for that. Try to add anything more, like explanations of how various people and their versions of English are accepted, is icing on the cake.
 
I think this thread can be summed up as: Japanese people don't like talking to me because of my accent :(

I'm at work now. Should I talk to my next student with a faux Mexican accent to make you feel better, pinson?
 
What irritates me is the inconsistency of English teaching in Japan - especially with slang and pronunciation.

How do you think it should be?

It's pretty hard to have consistency in slang and pronunciation when there are English speakers from around the world with major differences in both.

I'll often give a disclaimer to my students saying that this is my country's pronunciation, or I've never heard or never use this word/phrase/idiom, but that doesn't mean it's wrong and that other people don't use it.

I once overheard a class with a guy from the US teaching it. One of the students was spelling out a word which contained the letter 'z'. When she said 'zed', the guy said 'what? sorry, I don't understand that' and made her change to 'zee'. Pretty arrogant.
 
I once overheard a class with a guy from the US teaching it. One of the students was spelling out a word which contained the letter 'z'. When she said 'zed', the guy said 'what? sorry, I don't understand that' and made her change to 'zee'. Pretty arrogant.
Arrogant and embarrassing to those of us Americans who would have accepted the zed, explained the difference to the class, and moved on without criticizing the student. That guy was a jerk. Not all Americans are like that.
 
I once overheard a class with a guy from the US teaching it. One of the students was spelling out a word which contained the letter 'z'. When she said 'zed', the guy said 'what? sorry, I don't understand that' and made her change to 'zee'. Pretty arrogant.

He might have just been ignorant about the existence of "zed." Or possibly, the student said "zetto," which is not the name of a letter in any variety of English.
 
He might have just been ignorant about the existence of "zed." Or possibly, the student said "zetto," which is not the name of a letter in any variety of English.

Sorry but here in Japan to Japanese learners of English "zetto" or "zed" exist. It is the easiest pronunciation available because "zee" sounds to much like "g" and it confuses many learners.

Arrogant and embarrassing to those of us Americans who would have accepted the zed, explained the difference to the class, and moved on without criticizing the student. That guy was a jerk. Not all Americans are like that.

Quite so.
 
Sorry but here in Japan to Japanese learners of English "zetto" or "zed" exist. It is the easiest pronunciation available because "zee" sounds to much like "g" and it confuses many learners.

There's no need for you to apologize.
I don't find it acceptable for people to pick and choose whichever parts of English make it easiest for them to use, producing a horrible mishmash. If their textbooks use the words "color" and "elevator," then the letter is called "zee," not "zed," even if they have to try a little harder to say it right.

Furthermore, "zetto" is not the name of any English letter, in the same way that "bwee," "emu" and "eru" are not.
 
I don't find it acceptable for people pick and choose whichever parts of English make it easiest for them to use, producing a horrible mishmash. If their textbooks use the words "color" and "elevator," then the letter is called "zee," not "zed," even if they have to try a little harder to say it right.

Furthermore, "zetto" is not the name of any English letter, in the same way that "bwee," "emu" and "eru" are not.

Of course not the letters are the "same" it's just the pronunciation or excuse me let me correct that, it is the way that the letters are said.

And I take it you have never had the opportunity to try and teach English to Japanese learners of English, if you had you might find it more "acceptable" until the students are "taught" the proper way to say the letters.

Part of the problem stems from Japanese teachers teaching romaji to Elementary school students, in "romaji" "zetto" or "zed" is acceptable.

Romaji as you may know is not English but a method of using the roman alphabet to write Japanese.

It is easy to make comments or critisize until one actually experiences what occurs in the classroom, not from a students point of view, but from the teachers.
 
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I have been teaching English to Japanese youngsters for the past two years, and when they say "zetto," I correct them. I'm not going to mollycoddle them and act like it's acceptable English. Habits must be broken as quickly as possible.
Considering that almost any typical course of English study begins with the alphabet and the names of the letters, you can't act like these poor innocent children haven't been taught the right name for the letter yet. Most occurrences of "zetto" stem from laziness and an unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between English and Japanized English, which accounts for a lot of other mispronunciations in the English classroom.
Perhaps if a student actually said "zed" or even "zeddo," I would find that half-allowable, but in all my time here, I have yet to see that happen so this isn't even really a matter of American vs. British English.

We are given very little description about the incident reisender witnessed, what level the students were and how much they should have been able to handle. That may have just been the teacher's cheeky style of pointing out to students that they are being lazy and pronouncing things a-la katakana, such as "I raiku chiizu." or "I habu sebun bookusu." It's a pretty big assumption to jump to the conclusion that he was simply being arrogant.
 
Sorry guys,
I wasn't trying to say that all USans are like that. I was just saying that in my opinion it's important to let the students know that there are varieties in English. Far be it from me to tell someone that a common phrase in NZ taught to them by their former Kiwi teacher is wrong.
Anyway, this particular chap has been living in JP for more than 5 years and has been teaching for I assume, the same. I admit I can't recall the exact pronunciation the person used (regardless of randomly assigned level which has no bearing on pronunciation), but I find it hard to imagine in all that time teaching here, he hasn't come across 'zed' or its Japanese variants.
However, in his defense, he can't even pronounce his own wife's name properly.:eek2:
 
Considering that almost any typical course of English study begins with the alphabet and the names of the letters, you can't act like these poor innocent children haven't been taught the right name for the letter yet. Most occurrences of "zetto" stem from laziness and an unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between English and Japanized English, which accounts for a lot of other mispronunciations in the English classroom.

Well if you think this way then you havent been in too many elementary schools here. The majority of ES's at least here in Okinawa strongly frown upon teaching anything to do with the alphabet or grammar in Elementary School. It is all communicative English, so there is nothing typical about it at all.

Plus when a Japanese teacher is teaching "romaji" to Japanese kids they use "zetto" and not "zee", and that has absolutely nothing to do with laziness or unwillingness to acknowledge the differences because there is none. They are teaching Japanese NOT English. Huge difference.

Romaji is Japanese not Japanized English.
 
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