White privilege in Japan?

[Mike Cash]

I fail to see how the checklist you have provided is by any means privilege of any sort for any person of any color. It simply looks like representation and stereotypes. I would expect for everyone to get positive representation and stereotypes in societies where the vast majority of people are the same identity as the person being assessed.

So it is about "majority" vs "minority" and not just due to intrinsic whiteness? But that would lead one to think the professor giving this out for extra credit in her class is missing the boat somewhere....

 

[OoTmaster]

So it is about "majority" vs "minority" and not just due to intrinsic whiteness? But that would lead one to think the professor giving this out for extra credit in her class is missing the boat somewhere....

That's my assessment of the situation. Of course I'm a white male, I've been informed this invalidates my opinion on almost literally everything.

 

[Mike Cash]

That's my assessment of the situation. Of course I'm a white male, I've been informed this invalidates my opinion on almost literally everything.

Could be worse....

You could be a Southern white male, like I am.

Funny thing is, by the score I'm guessing I should be feeling horribly downtrodden, oppressed, and discriminated against.....yet I don't. I tried to figure out why that might be and I realized that I don't operate with an assumption that just because I'm the only person of my race present anywhere and everywhere I go during >99% of my daily life it means everybody who isn't my race must be out to get me.

 

[mdchachi]

It looks like a very much American oriented quiz and study. But I don't doubt many of the items apply to other situations.

To a large extent white privilege is the luxury of being able to take one's majority situation for granted. Although I read it a year or two ago, this story (from Quora) stuck with me and I was able to find it again.

I was asked to cover a class for a teacher who had been taken ill; this is the most dreaded of roles, the "substitute." Because it was unexpected, the teacher left no plan, so I had to improvise.

I decided to do a variation of a cinquain with them, ( a five line poem) based on their names. Roiling masses of ego that teenagers are, they are their own favorite subject. Besides, I'd get their names that way, so the attendance sheet wouldn't be a list of current singers and actors.

To illustrate the format, I used Michael Jackson. This was in his "Thriller" days, and in a class of tenth graders, all of whom were black, he would be familiar to everyone. The President of the United States...meh.

So I began by writing "Michael" on the board, and then asked for two words describing him. There was a sharp division in the descriptors between the boys and the girls, with the boys opting for denigrating remarks about his sexuality. After a sidebar to discuss unacceptable language, I used "gloved, mega-star" from the girls and wrote them under "Michael." Line three became "singing, dancing, laughing" and line 4 was "curly-haired, light-skinned, graceful, lithe" and we ended on "Jackson."

Next up: everyone now does their own cinquain. Several of the boys were a bit challenging, one in particular who had resented my earlier sidebar. Sitting in the back of the room, he said, "OK, but you have to write one, too."
"Sure", I said, one eye on the clock. After 5 minutes, I had the kids read aloud what they had written about themselves.

Without exception, every student had referenced being black in their self-descriptions. Terms such as "mocha-skinned," "ebony," "cafe-au-lait," "coffee colored" and "sienna" abounded. So far, so good.
Then the kids asked me to read what I had written about myself. So I did. The room was completely silent, in a way that tells you something's wrong. I said, "What is it?" One of the girls replied, "You didn't say anything about being white." It was true; I hadn't. I mentioned being red-haired and slender, but nothing about skin color and certainly nothing about race.

With kids, you can be sure the one thing they won't tolerate is deceit. Lie once and you've lost all validity in their eyes. So I responded truthfully, "It never entered my head. No white person describes themselves as "white'." Grumbles, remarks and a "Yeah, right," from my friend in the back of the room. I tried to clarify by explainiing that, if asked, I would describe myself as "Irish" or "Irish-American" or just plain "American", depending on the context. Complete disbelief. Further effort. "We don't think about being white because we're the majority. You focus on being black first because you're in the minority." I wasn't convincing anybody.

Then, I had an epiphany. And I asked them to read the poem about Michael Jackson that was on the board. Then I said, "I'm not asking for a show of hands, but how many of you described yourselves as heterosexual?"

The room went silent again, but this was of another kind, the kind that every teacher recognizes as a teaching moment. After a few beats, my rear-room challenger looked at me and said, "It never entered my head."

One of the girls asked, "Is that what it's like, being white? I figured white folks thought about being white all the time." Lots of nodding and verbal agreement from her classmates. I said, "We don't have to think about it; we just take it for granted." For the kids, it was just..."wow."

The bell rang and we parted company. When I returned to the department office, my chairman said, "Not bad. You kept them in the room." And I answered, "Yeah, I did. And everybody learned something."

 

[diligentcircle]

To a large extent white privilege is the luxury of being able to take one's majority situation for granted.

And what a worthless "privilege" that is. The story you shared is evidence that descriptors that apply to most people are rarely used. It is not evidence that this is a "privilege". The explanation is really simple: if a descriptor applies to most people, then it's a redundant descriptor for the most part.

Let me give a concrete example. To my knowledge, among cashiers at the Walmart I work at, all of these descriptors apply to most of us:

* White
* Woman
* Normal height
* Have a driver's license
* Drive to work
* Eat sugar
* Non-smoker

So are all of these "privileges"? No, they're just common. Similarly, I have these uncommon traits among this particular group:

* I don't eat sugar
* I bike to work
* I study Japanese

Does that mean I'm missing "privilege"? No, of course not. It means that we are all different in various ways, and differences are more noteworthy than similarities. After all, you could describe me as "the woman non-smoker cashier at Walmart who has a driver's license", but why would you choose that when you could instead say "the cashier at Walmart who bikes to work and doesn't eat sugar"? You probably wouldn't, and that's not only OK, it's the whole point of language.

 

[nahadef]

I'd wonder if you've ever been stopped by police because you study Japanese or don't eat sugar. There's a lot more to it than merely common descriptors. Your skin and gender are more inherent to you than your habits, and affect your experiences and way of thinking much more.

There's no doubt that Japanese 'see' foreigners and notice them in a way they don't notice Japanese. Once again, last week I was a complemented by a co-worker of three years, about my great chopstick skills. Everyone was using chopsticks equally well, but mine were noticed. It's boorish to complain about at this point, since that is just Japan at this point, but Mdchachi's story had a point to it. I acutely know I'm white a lot more for having lived in Japan than if I'd stayed in Canada. It comes out simply leaving the subway when a person handing out flyers lowers their hand because they see know point in handing a foreigner one. I also draw cartoons, but don't tend to get special treatment for it on a daily basis, as with your list of uncommon traits.

I am glad I live in Japan, it let's me know that I am white, and that white is not merely the default of the culture the way much of America considers it. That's a deliberate decision by the gatekeepers of American culture.

 

[diligentcircle]

I'd wonder if you've ever been stopped by police because you study Japanese or don't eat sugar.

That has nothing to do with feeling like you're with people who are similar to you at all. Nothing. I assume you must be referring to racial profiling, which I'm sure exists in some form for some police, but if you have a racist police officer in your town which is composed mostly of black people, the fact that you are mostly around people of the same race as you doesn't make this any less of a problem. Likewise, if you live in a town composed mostly of white people, that doesn't worsen the effect of racial profiling.

I'm not aware of any statistics on racial profiling. Most people I have seen talk about the matter rely on anecdotal evidence, which just doesn't cut the mustard. There could be all sorts of reasons for a police officer to stop you, such as bad driving (which could tip them off to drunk driving), speeding, or a broken tail light. It's hard to see who's driving a vehicle, so if anything, I would expect police to disproportionately pull over cars that are in rough shape, not cars that are being driven by black people. If that were the case, that would mean that they are conducting wealth profiling, not racial profiling.

Your skin and gender are more inherent to you than your habits, and affect your experiences and way of thinking much more.

Saying that your skin affects your way of thinking is literally a racist statement, and I would disagree with that completely. As for your gender, I tend to agree that men and women are different, and this makes sense (we have physical sexual dimorphism, so why not mental?). It still has nothing to do with "privilege". Being the same as everyone else is not a privilege.

There's no doubt that Japanese 'see' foreigners and notice them in a way they don't notice Japanese.

Obviously. If you notice that someone is different from you, you're going to take interest. People take interest in the fact that I bike to work even in the Winter all the time. They also take interest in something about me which is more inherent if they notice (usually children; they're adorably naïve and observant). That thing is something I don't want to talk about, so I don't. If someone asks me a direct question about it, I'll answer honestly and change the topic, or indicate that it's not a topic I care about. It's really not that hard. You can do that with your skin color, too.

Once again, last week I was a complemented by a co-worker of three years, about my great chopstick skills.

If you don't want to be complimented, act like an angry jerk every time someone does so, and I guarantee the compliments will stop. Mostly because everyone you know will stop liking you, but hey, if that's what you're after...

I acutely know I'm white a lot more for having lived in Japan than if I'd stayed in Canada.

I'm acutely aware of things about myself, too. Lack of awareness is not a privilege.

It comes out simply leaving the subway when a person handing out flyers lowers their hand because they see know point in handing a foreigner one.

You mean you're not approached by solicitors? That sounds like a privilege to me. I'm sure if you approached them and asked them what they're selling or what they're telling people, most of them would gladly tell you.

I also draw cartoons, but don't tend to get special treatment for it on a daily basis, as with your list of uncommon traits.

First, someone has to be aware about it. Unless you have "I draw cartoons" tattooed on your face in Japanese, most people you meet probably don't know that you draw cartoons. Then again, if you did have that tattoo, more people would be curious about why you felt the need to put the name of your job or hobby on your face as a tattoo. But I digress.

white is not merely the default of the culture the way much of America considers it. That's a deliberate decision by the gatekeepers of American culture.

"White" is not a "culture". It's a skin color. I guarantee you that I am far more culturally similar to the black people here where I live than the white people who live in France. And no, whiteness was not ever a "deliberate decision". The United States is predominantly white because the vast majority of the native populations prior to colonialism were wiped out by diseases such as Smallpox before European settlers really set foot. White skin itself evolved in Europe to adapt to limited amounts of sunlight, since lighter skin makes it easier to synthesize Vitamin D from ultraviolet radiation at the cost of reduced protection from excess ultraviolet radiation. All circumstantial.

 

[nahadef]

Wow. I'll just let that one go. Willful ignorance is a thing.

 

[OoTmaster]

Willful ignorance goes both ways. She presented quite a few valid rebuttals to your points. For someone that was born in Canada and lives in Japan currently and as far as I'm aware has never lived in the United States of America you seem to know quite a bit about it and have quite a bit of disdain toward it. Unless by the term America you mean North America or the America's in general. Although I would say Latino is the default of the America's in general.
If you're curious about everyday life in the United States though, as a native, I would be more than happy to provide you with personal experience. I may come off as quite abrasive most times, but I feel you have a very generalized feeling about a vast and varied country. The back roads of Montana for example are vastly different than wall street.

 

[nahadef]

I have no disdain for Americans, but I certainly do for America, and for white America with it's head in the sand social politics. The critique of peaceful football protests this weekend is yet another in the unending parade of white ignorance in America.

If you think being complimented for using chopsticks is an actual compliment and not actually a statement that they have low expectations of white people (or whatever non-Japanese it's said to), if you think that's a valid point, you are willfully ignorant.

If you think being ignored by people handing out flyers is a privilege and not a judgment from that minimum wage worker that you are not equal to every other Japanese walking by, if you think that's a valid point, you are willfully ignorant.

And this is hyperbole and extreme comparison, but why did those black people complain when they had their own section of the bus? Weren't they lucky to have a reserved section? My examples above were literally 5% the degree of that, but they were of the same thing: being treated differently for what you were born as. That's why blacks in America love being called articulate, right? It's a compliment. Why can't they just take a compliment?!

Valid points, you say though, valid points.

I've read what you think on a number of these topics, and it's utterly basic, the status quo, and I'm fully aware of it all already because it's the same boorish stuff that a lot of middle class whites say. If you had some acknowledgement of that, I'd be nicer to you, but you double down on your status quo opinions. I was quite polite in that first reply to that person above, and she was quite huffy and uppity in her response, so I'm not going to bother. Some people are fully entrenched in the notion that the culture they were raised in has some hard goodness to it, and will grasp at straws to justify basically anything. I'd rather criticize it and see where to improve. You don't. You make excuses.

Back to ignored status for you.

 

[diligentcircle]

If you think being complimented for using chopsticks is an actual compliment and not actually a statement that they have low expectations of white people (or whatever non-Japanese it's said to), if you think that's a valid point, you are willfully ignorant.

I would suggest you not assume the worst of people. You only hurt yourself by doing that.

If you think being ignored by people handing out flyers is a privilege and not a judgment from that minimum wage worker that you are not equal to every other Japanese walking by, if you think that's a valid point, you are willfully ignorant.

Yes, it is a result of a judgment. So what if it's incorrect? They lose a sale. Why would you be upset by that?

You don't even know why they ignored you. It could be because they assume your Japanese is bad and they don't want to waste their time on someone who doesn't understand. It could be because you're dressed like a slob and they don't want to waste their time on someone who is poor. It could be that you're wearing a shirt that tells them you won't be interested. Regardless, no one is obligated to approach you and try to make a sales pitch, and I don't understand why you would be upset by their decision not to.

why did those black people complain when they had their own section of the bus? Weren't they lucky to have a reserved section?

They didn't. Under Jim Crow, blacks had a designated zone they were allowed to sit in, and if there were too many whites, the "colored" section was shrunk down and anyone sitting toward the front had to move back. So it was the white people who had a reserved section, not the black people.

My examples above were literally 5% the degree of that, but they were of the same thing: being treated differently for what you were born as.

There's a universe of difference between institutionally enforced racial discrimination and what someone thinks about you before they get to know you, or whether or not someone chooses to start a sales pitch with you.

That's why blacks in America love being called articulate, right? It's a compliment. Why can't they just take a compliment?!

This statement frankly confused me. I don't have a stereotype of black people being inarticulate, and I can't say I understand why you would. All the black people I've ever known were just as articulate as everyone else.

Some people are fully entrenched in the notion that the culture they were raised in has some hard evil to it, and will grasp at straws to justify basically anything.

FTFY

 

[WonkoTheSane]

I was quite polite in that first reply to that person above, and she was quite huffy and uppity in her response, so I'm not going to bother.

Uppity?

That's an interesting word choice considering it has historically been used to denigrate blacks and women who have strong opinions and marginalize those opinions.

Why would you choose to describe a woman here who merely disagrees with you by using that word?

I find it doubly interesting since in one of our past discussions you lamented the fact that strong women are "...labeled a butch or a *****." by society, and yet in this very thread you choose to dismiss a woman's arguments on the basis of her being 'uppity' which perpetuates the exact concerns you voiced before.

I don't necessarily disagree with *everything* you claim, though I think it's far more nuanced and dynamic with each and every situation holding some 'privileges' (more appropriately called advantages) for each and every individual based on their myriad differences including ones they can and cannot control. Though I disagree with virtually everything else you claimed about these 'privileges'.

But to use a term like 'uppity' to describe a woman who has strong opinions and then specifically decline to respond to those opinions based on that characterization is *exactly* the definition of the type of privilege you claim is so widespread.

Why is it that so many times those who signal virtue have so little virtue about which they should be signaling?

 

[nahadef]

Google's your friend. At any given point in time, you can take a minute and listen and learn about people's experiences who aren't like you. For example, if you've never heard the complaint blacks have about being called articulate, you've obviously been living in a bubble, quite possibly a white one, something I'm sure you don't think exists. Still, you've managed to do so.
14 Words That Carry A Coded Meaning For Black People
"What you say: "You are very articulate."
What we hear: You speak clearly and confidently, which I do not expect from black people. Again, you are a rarity."



Why Black People Are Tired Of Being Called "Articulate" – Affinity Magazine

This Brief Talk Brilliantly Explains What Black People Hear When White People Call Them 'Articulate'

Thanks for your input into how white privilege is a fiction, and how white people should feel great when treated like special education cases who managed to learn the intricacies of eating with the skill of a six year old in Japan. I've taken your ideas into consideration. You seem to have deeply thought about this issue and arrived there after much soul-searching, and listening to the experiences of others with an open mind. Best of luck in the future.

 

[nahadef]

Oh, here's another person describing an imaginary thing. The audience is pretty white, so it might be legit:

Jamila Lyiscott: 3 ways to speak English | TED Talk

 

[diligentcircle]

14 Words That Carry A Coded Meaning For Black People
"What you say: "You are very articulate."
What we hear: You speak clearly and confidently, which I do not expect from black people. Again, you are a rarity."

Buzzfeed? You must be joking.

Jamila Lyiscott: 3 ways to speak English | TED Talk

That's not even a talk, it's some sort of poem aggressively responding to the fact that someone called her "articulate". How does she know that it was even in reference to the black vernacular? It could very well be that she just happens to be very articulate. I'd believe it given the extraordinary skill at poetry she displays here.

Oh, but sorry, I guess I just suggested that blacks are usually bad at poetry. What a racist I am.

Look, I don't care why anyone gets called "articulate", "good at math", "strong", or anything else, because it's a compliment and has no ill intentions at all. When I give people their change, I do the math myself before letting the register tell me what it is, and I've seen people awestruck that I was able to do that, and some people tell me I must be great at math. My response is not to assume that their compliment is a code word for, "Women are bad at math!" because I don't assume that everything that comes out of everyone's mouth has to be malicious. I take the compliment and move on.

 

[OoTmaster]

Buzzfeed? You must be joking.

Buzzfeed is white guilt gospel.

 

[Mike Cash]

http://walterewilliams.com/WalterWilliamsAmnestyProclamation.pdf

 

[nahadef]

 

[OoTmaster]

I like how he's an expert on race relations in the US, but he's a Canadian that lives in Japan. I think the native born and bred US citizen, that has only been outside of the US a single month in his entire life, might know just a tad more about race relations in the US.

 

[Mike Cash]

Speaking just for myself and of myself, back in the days when my ability to put food on the table and remain in Japan at all depended on my essentially whoring out my gaijinity it sometimes galled me to be treated differently just because I was a foreigner (read: "white" if you want) but it struck me as being at least a little absurd to sell it on the one hand and then on the other hand get offended when people give even the slightest indication of having noticed it when I wasn't at work. It rings a bit odd both to essentially commoditize one's own race and at the same time get miffed when the commodity is remarked upon.

I also found it a bit galling to be passed over when printed matter was being passed out on the streets, but I also realized how asinine I would have looked making a fuss over someone's assumption that I couldn't read Japanese back in the days when I actually did have no Japanese literacy skills worth speaking of.

I found very refreshing and liberating the degree to which my race and/or national origin ceased to be a matter of interest, discussion, or even much comment when I quit selling it as my means of continuing to live here. Japanese people have proven to me time and time again their capacity to really not give a crap about the fact that I'm a foreigner when my gaijinity isn't the premise for my presence at a place or participation in an activity. Have some other reason to be wherever you are, doing whatever you are, other than the simple fact you're different (and have enough Japanese ability and literacy to be able to keep up with what's going on) and it is nothing short of astounding how much nobody cares you're a gaijin. If back in the days when I taught English anyone had tried to tell me what an incredible difference there is, I would have considered them the worst kind of föol or liar.

This is an entirely different country to live in....and a much more pleasant one....when one's living here as a gaijin doesn't require one to spend every day professionally being a gaijin.

 

[johnnyG]

(minor point--questionnaire #16: by > buy)

 

[mdchachi]

And what a worthless "privilege" that is. The story you shared is evidence that descriptors that apply to most people are rarely used. It is not evidence that this is a "privilege". The explanation is really simple: if a descriptor applies to most people, then it's a redundant descriptor for the most part.

You missed the point as nahadef pointed out. "Privilege" means "benefit" in this case. Are you saying that you see no benefit to being white in a majority white country where whites hold the vast majority of positions of authority and the vast majority of wealth?

Look, I don't care why anyone gets called "articulate", "good at math", "strong", or anything else, because it's a compliment and has no ill intentions at all.

The intentions are not the point. The point is that there is stereotyping at play.

But aside from this subtle stuff there is plenty of not so subtle stuff going on in the news all the time. Aside from the recent white supremacist gatherings, there's the recent air force academy news or the volunteer firefighter who said something completely beyond the pale. And there plenty of this stuff going on in Canada too btw. Like this woman who insisted on seeing a white doctor.

It's good in these cases that the racist actions are getting called out. Nevertheless it's white privilege -- benefit if you will -- to not have to experience any of this. I don't have to wonder where the person I'm encountering falls on the racism spectrum. Wonder if I'm in any danger. Wonder if I will be mistreated.

There's no end of anecdotal stories but there is plenty of real research out there too. As far as stories go, I like the one about Chappelle's friend Chip.

 

[diligentcircle]

Are you saying that you see no benefit to being white in a majority white country

Yes.

where whites hold the vast majority of positions of authority and the vast majority of wealth?

I don't see any benefit from Donald Trump being the President or from Bill Gates being a billionaire just because we happen to have an attribute in common. I do not hold a position of authority. I do not hold vast amounts of wealth. Being the same skin color as someone who does has no bearing on that.

The point is that there is stereotyping at play.

This thread does not contain a demonstration that stereotypes, or lack thereof, are a privilege. Stereotypes are a tool for social interaction and can be either positive or negative in any given situation. On the whole, I believe that stereotypes are more good than they are bad; without making some base assumptions about situations, social interaction would be a nightmare.

Aside from the recent white supremacist gatherings, there's the recent air force academy news or the volunteer firefighter who said something completely beyond the pale. And there plenty of this stuff going on in Canada too btw. Like this woman who insisted on seeing a white doctor.

I don't see what this has to do with whether or not stereotypes constitute privilege, or whether being given unwanted compliments is a form of oppression. If you're saying that racists exist, well, duh. I'm not disputing that.

I don't see why you would be troubled by someone refusing to be treated by a non-white doctor. The absolute worst effect that can possibly have on society is a slight overall increase in healthcare cost because they refused treatment to the point of requiring an emergency room visit. Other than that, who cares if someone refuses to accept help from people they're bigoted against? It's their own suffering and lives.

Nevertheless it's white privilege -- benefit if you will -- to not have to experience any of this.

Any of what, exactly? Seeing that racism exists? Not being able to help people who hate you? Being around people who hate you? All of these seem unavoidable to me, regardless of your situation.

I don't have to wonder where the person I'm encountering falls on the racism spectrum.

No one does. I don't feel obligated to wonder whether everyone I meet is hateful of groups I fit into, and why should I? Who cares if it turns out I was talking to a bigot who hates what I am? If I was nice to them, there we go, I've whittled away at their perception. That's a good thing.

Wonder if I'm in any danger. Wonder if I will be mistreated.

Both irrational fears for anyone who isn't alone with someone they don't know well. If you are alone with a stranger who is capable of overpowering you, then yeah, you have reason to be fearful, but that has nothing to do with your skin color, or theirs. Being mugged or raped by a stranger isn't any better because they have the same skin color as you.

 

[Mike Cash]

Wasn't this thread about white privilege in Japan????

Maybe the bits with white Americans discussing white privilege in America could be split off into a separate thread?

Being away from the never-ending race problems is one of the nicest things about not being there anymore.

 

[OoTmaster]

Maybe the bits with white Americans discussing white privilege in America could be split off into a separate thread?

I agree. No need to bring America into it all.

Being away from the never-ending race problems is one of the nicest things about not being there anymore.

It was a nice month full of not hearing anything about it at all in Japan. Some people here ask me if I experienced it at all over there, since they've heard how "xenophobic" Japan is. I tell them quite honestly it was the furthest thing from my mind at the time.