What kind of impact do you think this video will have on China?

deadhippo · 8 Aug 2005

Well, i decided to post a poll to see whether the impact of the posting of a video showing Chinese football fans become hooligans after losing a football match would have a positive impact, negative impact or no impact.

click here to see the source of this poll an to see the video

well, what do you think?
Any opinions on the poll, itself are also recommended

i wont vote on this one

TwistedMac · 8 Aug 2005

somewhere in-between negative and neutral.

slightly negative.

lexico · 8 Aug 2005

Regarding people who are neither Chinese nor Japanese, and who already have enough knowledge on the matter to have a well-thought out decision willl not be influenced by the protest videos. Those who feel that the Chinese individuals have been unduly victimised by Imperial Japan without either compensation or genuine apology and further insulted by the Yasukuni worshiping of war agressors; Japan would remain contemptible.

For those people who think, regardless of the atrocities that the Chinese idividuals had to suffer between 1931-1945 (just to mention WWII, but not mentioning the other subhuman treatment before WWII), that those Chinese victims and their families should just move on will not change their minds because they have already blocked out the human suffering experienced by the Chinese individuals. The Yasukuni Insult will not change their minds either.

For those who choose not to study the matter in depth to come to one's own valid decision; I prefer not to comment for it is meaningless to comment on nothing. These individuals might just conveniently copy whatever seems popular in the neighbourhood.

deadhippo · 8 Aug 2005

lexico said:
For those who choose not to study the matter in depth to come to one's own valid decision; I prefer not to comment for it is meaningless to comment on nothing. They might just conveniently copy whatever seems popular in the neighborhood.

this post has nothing to do with yasukuni or past crimes by japan
but simply about the posting of this video
and i think the people who dont know about chinese-japanese history (who are the majority) can just as easily judge the effect of such a video on their opinion of china and chinese people in general
in fact these people with no knowledge of japan-chinese relations may even be in a better position to judge than either you or surefire (*edit - or myself for that matter, which is why i didnt vote) because they dont have any preconceived stances or opinions about the situation

bohrwen · 8 Aug 2005

why you link to 4321go's flash page???
when you see the video ,you should think that why the Chinese hate japanese?
why we make friends with other footballteam,but hate japan footballteam???
Don't forget the goal with handﾂ！Look at the page ~~you will know why Chinese hate japan football gamer. How Shameless!
the pic of japanese kick a goal with hand
the video of japanese kick a goal with hand
and also don't fotget the WW窶｡Uﾂ！

lexico · 8 Aug 2005

If what you are trying to discover from this thread is not learning or analysing the historical context of the demonstrations, but only to find out how people would respond without thought, if that is the main purpose (I could say very much like a pre-election poll), I don't see why I am wirting this at all.

In that case, I would say common perception would definitely work against the demostrators' cause. What they see is only the end result. If the context and causes are not understood, actually the best way would be to reserve judgement until an explantion be given or found.

What is the most dangerous and harmful thing to humans ? To rush into action or a decision without reasoning; in which case the thin distinction between what is animal and what is human would disappear. But reserving judgement, let me asnwer your question.

Nobody likes to see violence in front of their PC screen; whitout reasoning, I would say most people would respond negatively to the flash. How could it be otherwise ?

deadhippo · 8 Aug 2005

lexico said:
Nobody likes to see violence in front of their PC screen; whitout reasoning, I would say most people would respond negatively to the flash. How could it be otherwise ?

so it seems that you agree with me, because if you look 4321's post there is no explanation
its a pity you cant change your vote

i never implied that the chinese have nothing to complain about but just that this was neither the time , place or method

but anyway by voting neutral you have admitted that there is nothing to be achieved from posting this video, if you think it has neither positive nor negative impact

If what you are trying to discover from this thread is not learning or analysing the historical context of the demonstrations, but only to find out how people would respond without thought, if that is the main purpose (I could say very much like a pre-election poll), I don't see why I am wirting this at all.

the point of this poll was stated in the title
im not saying that people shouldnt think or learn about this issue
what i am saying is that this video will have a negative impact on peoples opinion of chinese people
which is not the effect 4321 wanted
i believe he wanted people to have a bad opinion of japanese people which i totally disagree with
but if he had stated his argument and the reasons for such an outburst i think he might have gathered some sympathy for the cause
not from me though as i think its very inappropriate in this situation and strikes of immaturity

the fact is most people dont know about this history and you are being naive if you think they are all going to study up on it rather than making quick judgements
so my point
once again
no good can come of displaying this video

lexico · 8 Aug 2005

Yes I agree with you; but under the condition that response would NOT involve any knowledge, prejudgement, or reflection to properly qualify and to organise one's emotional response.

I wonder if that condition can be made visible; I didn't know that initially. Perhaps you and I had different assumptions that we took for granted.

DeadHippo said:
the fact is most people dont know about this history and you are being naive if you think they are all going to study up on it rather than making quick judgements
so my point
once again
no good can come of displaying this video

Fair enough; still if something like that comes up for discussion; I would still argue for the victims and their rights to express, however uncoordinated it might be.
It is 1,000,000 times more civilised than what happened in Nanjing in Dec. 1937-Mar. 1938 in the hands of Imperial Japanese Army.

It would be good for the demonstrators to excercise self-restraint, refraining from violence. Words such as "The (modern) Japanese deserve to be punished" sounds wrong to me. They might do well to condemn such extremist voices too. In the meantime, Japan should also try to save itself from international humiliation from what their predecessor have done. The Green Cross companies still make huge profits in the pharmaceuticals from their wartime human experiments; that is just insulting, revolting to human reason.

deadhippo · 8 Aug 2005

lexico said:
It is 1,000,000 times more civilised than what happened in Nanjing in Dec. 1937-Mar. 1938 in the hands of Imperial Japanese Army.

again you are talking about another era
japans past actions in no way make those recent actions in china acceptable

you may not agree but i feel that i have no right to slap mr. x because his father killed my father

lexico · 9 Aug 2005

deadhippo said:
you may not agree but i feel that i have no right to slap mr. x because his father killed my father

1) Let us suppose Mr. X's father killed my father 11 yrs ago; too late for a lawsuit.
2) Let us further suppose that Mr. X publishes a statement that says, "My father never killed him (the name of my father), and if he (my name) still believes that my father killed his, he (my name) is deranged and is a liar."

If the two suppositions 1) and 2) are true, then I am fully entitled to sue Mr. X for

3) slander a/o libel; consequential psychological damage
4) defamation

Furthermore, when new evidence of a criminal act is discovered after the 10 yr "delay to appeal" I am entitled to

5) request a reopening of a prior murder case or initiate a new murder case if it had not been pursued previously.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technically, the Chinese individuals who were victims or related to victims of Imerial Japan's atroticious acts/war crimes, if they can establish new evidence that is acceptable and proveable in a court of law, are quite entitled to sue

3) Modern Japan for slander/libel
4) Modern Japan for defamation
5) Survivors of Imperial Japan for the original crime as proveable by the newly surfaced pieces of evidence.

deadhippo · 9 Aug 2005

yes i completely agree, i think (as i dont know the law all that well)
and i didnt quite follow point 2 but i think i know what you mean

it should be done like that, through the courts
but i dont think that gives you the right to put a dent in mr. x's car or spit on his dog or whatever
i think it should be dealt with in a civilised fashion

i have no arguments against china asking japan to apologise for war crimes
but i do have arguments against hooliganism, vandalism and racism which is what we are looking at here
if the video was of a chinese government official or an individual for that matter demanding an apology for these crimes or even recognition that these crimes took place then i would be moved
then i would feel angry at japans complacency
but watching this video makes me wonder if china is safe
china is a place i really want to visit but this kind of thing is off-putting
actually having this kind of crime is bad enough but displaying it without shame
what are people to think

lexico · 9 Aug 2005

It looks like we are in complete agreement on these points; both yours and mine, and I have the least doubt that our Chinese members would also agree to these principles you stated so well. Thank you for pointing them out.

It's just that these things, although they concern what happened 60-70 yrs ago, are old wounds that only recently have begun to be expressed. Let us hope that not only the motivation, but also the means of expressing these issues become more civil in the future. I somehow feel hopeful; when the initial bursts of memory of violation have errupted and validated to a degree, there would be less of it to follow, and a more reasoned, civil form of protest will become the norm instead.

deadhippo · 9 Aug 2005

just one final question though Lexico

do you think any good could come from posting this video
im not looking for a discussion on the reasons for posting or history or anything like that
just your honest opinion regarding this video

i probably wont discuss this topic anymore for several reasons
the main one being that its time consuming
and time is something i dont have enough of

but i am curious about your true (non-debate mode) opinion on the posting of this video

lexico · 9 Aug 2005

Given my "bias" I, might have selected demonstration scenes more objective, acceptable, and reasoned; I also would have added enough detail as an article or news script. I probably would have used the verbal medium instead of fully relying on visuals. But that does not invalidate the posting; it definitely created some commotion; but depending on how you look at it; it can be a positive, catalytic experience. The opportunity might have been better used; but I don't mind. If that's what's natural right now, then it must be a stage that they/we must pass thru.

Just yesterday a German acquaintance made an interesting remark on one German/Korean cultural difference. There, everthing tend to be formal, regulated, and one minor breach or offense will cause raised eyebrows. He didn't like that at all; he prefered the Korean spontaneity and YOYU ﾃｩP窶乃, margin. I was a bit alarmed because I tend to prefer the opposite; I don't like too much lax, but prefer a certain degree of formality/propriety. I guess I might be a bit more demanding of people of European/Euro-based/Japanese nationalities, whereas I might be more forgiving of people from a more traditional Asian nationality due to the difference in cultural sensitivity.

deadhippo · 9 Aug 2005

well, i guess there is no such thing as a straight answer from you
not that really expected one

lexico · 30 Aug 2005

errata

lexico said:
1) Let us suppose Mr. X's father killed my father 11 yrs ago; too late for a lawsuit.
2) Let us further suppose that Mr. X publishes a statement that says, "My father never killed him (the name of my father), and if he (my name) still believes that my father killed his, he (my name) is deranged and is a liar."

If the two suppositions 1) and 2) are true, then I am fully entitled to sue Mr. X for

3) slander a/o libel; consequential psychological damage
4) defamation

Furthermore, when new evidence of a criminal act is discovered after the 10 yr "delay to appeal" I am entitled to

5) request a reopening of a prior murder case or initiate a new murder case if it had not been pursued previously.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technically, the Chinese individuals who were victims or related to victims of Imerial Japan's atroticious acts/war crimes, if they can establish new evidence that is acceptable and proveable in a court of law, are quite entitled to sue

3) Modern Japan for slander/libel
4) Modern Japan for defamation
5) Survivors of Imperial Japan for the original crime as proveable by the newly surfaced pieces of evidence.

errata: "delay to appeal" should be "statutory limitations ﾅ津ｶ窶亙ﾅｽﾅｾﾂ敕?"

Above argument assumes there is a statute of limitation of 10 yrs; however the following states that there is no limit to crimes against humanity and war crimes such as genocide, genocidal massacre, genocidal murder, and tacitly genocidal crimes.

Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes, 1970 (pdf)

@ Deadhippo: As for the original post's question, I have come to believe presenting raw images without qualification can be more damaging that conducive of a healthy, constructive discussion. I hope reason rules while blind anger or reactionary behaviour take a secondary role to reason only if at all.

Jack · 31 Aug 2005

it happens all the time, in England, look at the Pompey fans, they get together to be hooligans.

lexico · 31 Aug 2005

Thanks for the break ! Yeah, too much tension is not good for health ! Gotta laugh some times, right ?
Yeah, just to be hooligans, hahahaha

What kind of impact do you think this video will have on China?

What impact do you think posting this video will have?

Positive - People will support China more

Negative - People will support China less

Neutral - No impact

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