This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

what jobs for foreigner with a japanese degree?

L

lullemans72

後輩
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Hi

I was wondering what job opportunities there are for foreigners who obtain a university degree in japan from a japanese university. will their chances of employment at japanese companies increase if they speak fluent japanese? (considering they have studied at a japanese university for 4 years), or does it really not matter?
 
I don't think it matters how much Japanese studying you have under your belt or how long you have studied in Japan, what matters is your actual ability. I have met many people who majored in Japanese, but seem to not really know the language all that well.

In any case I think it really depends on a lot of factors, but it has been said before, what is it that you can do that a Japanese person with the same training cannot do? What would you be bringing to the company? What is your edge? is it that you are multilingual? Then it really depends on what you want to do I suppose. But I don't think having a degree from a Japanese university will necessarily increase your chances of getting a job. It might, depending on the circumstance, but it is certainly not a guarantee.
 
lullemans72 said:
will their chances of employment at japanese companies increase if they speak fluent japanese?
Click to expand...
Most non-teaching jobs here require a high amount of Japanese fluency. Not just speaking, but reading and writing as well. Show these, and you have a big leg up on the other foreigners who don't have such qualifications.

(considering they have studied at a japanese university for 4 years), or does it really not matter?
Click to expand...
Uh, are you saying that studying for 4 years has made you fluent in Japanese? What is your JLPT level (and anything else beyond that measure, because even JLPT 1 is not perfectly fluent)?
 
well, of course your actual ability is what's important. but one would assume that the longer you have lived in japan, the better one would be at japanese. i know it's not always true, but it's just an assumption. i'm not considering majoring in japanese studies, but doing my studies in japanese.
as for my personal abilities? well, i speak 5 languages including japanese, would that be a good enough ability you think?
i would personally like to live and work in japan. and i've met foreigners who wanted to do the same thing, only they had already obtained their university degree and some work experience in their own country and then came to japan looking for a job. their obstacle is of course that they probably don't speak as fluent as someone who has done their university studies in japan. i was thinking if i do my university studies in japan, i'd be much better at japanese, although i may not have the work experience (yet).
 

i'm not saying i have studied in japan for 4 years, but i'm saying if one did do that, i'm sure they would achieve near fluencly. i mean come on, universities ask for at least level 2 when you apply, so 4 years later i'm sure that you would achieve near fluency.
of course even if you pass level 1 you never really speak perfect japanese, but then again, what native japanese speaker can call himself fluent? i don't think any native speaker of any language is ever fluent unless they have really studied their own language at university.
 
lullemans72 said:
i'm not saying i have studied in japan for 4 years, but i'm saying if one did do that, i'm sure they would achieve near fluencly.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't bet on that. I teach at a uni where there are plenty of foreign grad students, and they don't have "near fluency". Not by far.

i mean come on, universities ask for at least level 2 when you apply
Click to expand...
No they don't. Maybe the ones you have looked at, but certainly not all. Many reputable ones will give students 3-6 months of intensive language lessons before they can start taking regular courses, but even that is not nearly enough to achieve JLPT2.

As for your own ability, you wrote that "i speak 5 languages including japanese". Speak Japanese to what level? Help us to help you here. You probably stand a good chance to get in with the language requirement, depending on where you apply, but once you graduate, you have to realize what else it takes to land a job:

1) More than the ability to speak the language. Can you read and write it, too? Memos, office mail, and many other documents are usually in Japanese in businesses here.

2) Having a degree and some speaking ability is usually not enough, except for a local, who gets chosen based on what uni they attended and what their advisors recommended. For a foreigner, with less than perfect language skills, you're going to need a heckuva recommendation from your advisor, plus some skill(s) that a Japanese person doesn't have. Otherwise, why should a Japanese company take a risk on you? They not only have to coddle foreigners to some degree with language barriers, but they have to deal with immigration (not a big issue, but some employers are very reticent about sponsoring visas), and then there are the cultural issues (complaints).
 
I would also like to add that another barrier for foreigners is that even if they speak the language to some degree, the fact that many might not understand the Japanese way, or might put up a fuss about the way things are run is another reason Japanese companies might be hesitant to hire a foreigner. Are you ready to conform to the Japanese way, and yet still be treated as a foreigner? And are you ready to work or (be at the office) the insanely long hours that many companies expect their employees to be? Can you prove to them that you will be in it for the long run? because they probably will not want to invest in somebody who will be likely to pick up and leave in a couple of years.

And do not get me wrong, I am not saying these things to try and be a downer. But I think these are real questions that you will have to ask yourself if this is what you want.
 
Grad students don't use nor are required to use Japanese as much as undergrads do, and that's why they don't speak Japanese fluently. But having met some Belgians in Brussels some of who studied in universities in Japan, I would be somewhat optimistic about Japanese proficiency after you spent 4 years in uni at undergrad level. Those I met are indeed quite fluent, both in reading and writing. Monolingual people tend to be very pessimistic about achieving fluency in foreign languages.
 
I am always fascinated by the fact that people who have all the answers still ask questions.
 
Glenski said:
I wouldn't bet on that. I teach at a uni where there are plenty of foreign grad students, and they don't have "near fluency". Not by far.).
Click to expand...
well, as one of the posters here has said, grad students probably don't use as much japanese as undergraduate students. let me ask you this, did those grad students you teach to study in japan before? and if so, for how long? did they have to take the JLPT to be admitted?
if we're talking about 4 years of undergraduate studies COMPLETELY in japanese, i think i'm going to have to disagree with you that you couldn't achieve near fluency. you're actually using the japanese language every single day for 4 years, for your university studies on top of that. i really don't see how you could not get your japanese to a very respectable level.
well forgive my ignorance, but knowing that nearly all japanese undergraduate courses are conducted in japanese, i personally don't know any japanese university that would let foreign students into their undergraduate faculties without first getting proof that they have level 1 or 2...how could you understand japanese text books or understand classes if you don't have at least level 2?
about the languages, i have 3 mother tongues including dutch and french. then i speak a decent amount of english, and adding japanese to that would make 5. i have previously studied the japanese language in japan for one year, so i've learned a lot of japanese (of course not nearly enough to call myself fluent). needless to say i've forgotten things too, but i keep in touch with japanese people quite often, and i try to keep learning new things even when i'm not in japan.
i think with preparation, i could probably pass level 2.
1) More than the ability to speak the language. Can you read and write it, too? Memos, office mail, and many other documents are usually in Japanese in businesses here.
Click to expand...
let's get back to what i've said earlier. if i study for 4 years at a japense university only in japanese, surely i will be able to read and write it too.
well, i can't disagree there. indeed a japanese employer would have to think twice about hiring a foreigner. however, if foreigner wants to work and live in japan, he has to know that there will be cultural differences and you just have to accept and adapt, or there would be little reason in coming to japan in the first place.
 
you make valid points. whether i'm ready to conform to the japanese way depends on the circumstances. it also depends what you mean by insanely long hours? are we talking 50 hours? 60 hours or 70 hours or more? let me put it like this, if i knew that i was not just being treated 'like a foreigner', and i knew that i contributed to the company, i think i probably would accept most things that came with it. but if i had to see myself being ignored etc, i probably wouldn't.
i think those insanely long hours which you talk about don't apply to all companies.
i have a japanese friend who works in tokyo in the IT industry, and he claims that when times are really busy, they would make him work up to 75 hours a week, without overpay.
however, i also know someone from france who also works in the IT industry (bet it in nagoya), and he tells me that he usually never stays later than 6pm, mostly using his last half hour taking care of personal things rather than working.
lastly, you make a valid point in saying that an employer wouldn't want to invest time in a foreigner who would leave in a matter of years. but does the younger japanese generation still stay at the same company for their entire lives? this might be one of the things i don't really understand well. in the west, you would have to invest time and money in a new employee anyway. if that employee likes his job, he will stay, and he can be an asset to the company, but if even after the employer put a lot of resources into the employee, he wants to leave, there's not much the employer can do to stop him is there? why would a japanese employer want to hire a foreign employee and then treat him badly anyway?
 

I have long been of the opinion that while all foreign workers say they expect only "fair and equal" treatment 99% of Western foreigners in fact would not tolerate equal treatment with Japanese workers. In the positions they end up taking....where they are hired because they are foreigners, not even though they are foreigners....they both expect and receive better working conditions, working hours, and pay than their Japanese counterparts. Their Japanese coworkers tend to resent them for it, and the clueless foreigners wonder why they're resented and excluded.

why would a japanese employer want to hire a foreign employee and then treat him badly anyway?
Click to expand...

As I mentioned above, if you're filling a position where some aspect of your foreignness was a reason for your being hired, they generally would not. If you're hired even though you're a foreigner and work under the same pay and conditions as your Japanese coworkers, then chances are high you'll think you're being treated badly....when in fact you're just being shat upon equally.

My workday averages 14 hours a day, six days a week. What you consider insanely long work hours, I hit sometime Thursday morning when I'm barely over halfway through the week.

Trust me: Western foreigners want fair treatment in Japan, but practically none of them would tolerate equal treatment in the bulk of jobs here.
 
so are you saying you personally know foreigners that have better working conditions and better pay than their japanese co-workers? where do they work?
as for the 'insanely long work hours', i didn't pronounce myself on that. in the posts above, i was asking what is considered by insanely long hours. if it's 50 hours per week, then i wouldn't consider than 'insanely' long, but just long. if it's 70 or more, then yeah, i would start to call that insanely long.
you say you work an average of 14 hours a day, six days a week. that's about 84 hours per week, right? where is it you work, and what is your position within the company? do you enjoy working all those hours? (heck, if you do, then i don't see a problem). maybe i should ask this as well: how much overtime do you do per day, and are you getting paid more for the overwork you do? do you get any other benefits like the japanese workers, such as bi-annual bonuses?
maybe you are right, foreigners want equal treatment in the good sense, but won't tolerate equal treatment in the negative sense. perhaps this is a double standard when it comes to that.
 
lullemans72 said:
well, as one of the posters here has said, grad students probably don't use as much japanese as undergraduate students.
Click to expand...
That's not the point. You said that it is likely a person would have the fluency.

let me ask you this, did those grad students you teach to study in japan before? and if so, for how long? did they have to take the JLPT to be admitted?
Click to expand...
Complicated answer.

1) Half the students are Chinese or Mongolian and have expressed little difficulty in getting by with the written language.

2) Of the other half, many but not all are forced by their Mombusho scholarship to do the intensive lessons before even coming to my uni. Three months, but I've seen what they have learned, and it is not even JLPT3 level.

3) My uni (sadly) doesn't have any requirements for foreign students to know any Japanese. I would have to say that the vast majority of foreign students in my uni have not studied much Japanese at all at home.


On one hand, I'd agree with your first statement above. However, it depends entirely on the student and his field of study. In my uni (a science uni), the grad courses are advertised as being taught bilingually in English and Japanese. This is actually not the case, and the only real English they get in most cases is a handout or Internet link to follow. But, what's more important is how they perform their research, and they are allowed to present updates in English.

Getting along in classes and labs is one thing, and getting along in daily life without Japanese is another. Unless you have been here, you can't really appreciate how easy it can be to live here without knowing much Japanese. Many of the foreign students just want to get the degree and go back home, where they will use the degree and knowledge, and never use the smattering of Japanese they learned ever again. Some of the students, in fact, are on leave of absence from FT jobs in order to get their degrees, so they are in quite a hurry to return or risk losing their jobs.

Undergrad courses, yes. I agree.

i have previously studied the japanese language in japan for one year, so i've learned a lot of japanese (of course not nearly enough to call myself fluent).
Click to expand...
I would beg to differ about how much that "lot" is in just a year, but I don't want to sidetrack the issue here.

You would be surprised to learn how many foreigners don't have that logical attitude!

Besides, there are branches of foreign companies here that don't use so much Japanese in the office.

i think those insanely long hours which you talk about don't apply to all companies.
Click to expand...
True. What line of work are you hoping to be in?

i have a japanese friend who works in tokyo in the IT industry, and he claims that when times are really busy, they would make him work up to 75 hours a week, without overpay.
Click to expand...
Illegal. But, companies take advantage even of the Japanese who don't often complain about such things. Foreigners do more often.

but does the younger japanese generation still stay at the same company for their entire lives?
Click to expand...
Not as much as before, but that's because lifetime employment is waning. That's still no reason to say that the workers shouldn't be treated with respect.

why would a japanese employer want to hire a foreign employee and then treat him badly anyway?
Click to expand...
The word "badly" can often be equated with "differently". Culturally different, that is, from what the foreigner is used to. The employer doesn't usually see it as "badly".
 
lullemans72 said:
lastly, you make a valid point in saying that an employer wouldn't want to invest time in a foreigner who would leave in a matter of years. but does the younger japanese generation still stay at the same company for their entire lives?
Click to expand...

Well, my impression from a lot of my friends is that leaving the company is still kind of looked down upon. Especially when it appears the person is just changing jobs ever few years or so. The potential new company may be more hesitant to hire such a person. There is still a lot to be said for graduating in 4 years with your degree in March at 22 years old, and starting a job with a company the same year in April. People who go outside of this system can definitely have a harder time finding employment I believe. At least that is the impression I get from the people I have talked to working outside of that system. So my feeling is that companies can still be quite rigid, but certainly not as bad as it used to be I suppose.
 
lullemans72 said:
so are you saying you personally know foreigners that have better working conditions and better pay than their japanese co-workers? where do they work?
Click to expand...

Most white collar professionals who are hired at least in part because they are foreigners.


I am a truck driver, the sole non-Japanese in my company, working for the same pay and under the exact same conditions as everybody else. I'm one of the rare Western foreigners in a position despite being a foreigner rather than just because I'm a foreigner. No, I don't get overtime pay. Neither do my coworkers.

maybe you are right, foreigners want equal treatment in the good sense, but won't tolerate equal treatment in the negative sense. perhaps this is a double standard when it comes to that.
Click to expand...

"Maybe" has nothing to do with it. I am absolutely positively categorically undeniably emphatically correct.
 
Glenski said:
Why is that, Mike? Are truck drivers somehow exempt from the labor law which requires overtime pay?
Click to expand...

No, we're not exempt; we just get screwed.

Truck driver wages are the cushion that gets called upon to absorb the shock of economic bounciness. The first expense producers want to control is freight, as the cost of transportation adds no value to their goods. That is facilitated by a glut of transportation capacity, with far too many trucking companies competing for business. They pass on the squeeze in the area where they have the most leeway, which is labor costs. The companies just conveniently ignore whatever areas of wage law they can easily get by with.
 
It's called "service zangyou" or service overtime. Service refers to doing something for free. When I worked at the hotel, it was a constant companion.
 
a lot of people say that it's incredibly easy to live in japan without knowing japanese. i personally find that extremely intimidating. for those people who stay in japan short term, and who are like the students you described, it's easy i guess. but i know i couldn't live in japan without feeling guilty if i didn't speak as much japanese as possible. just think about all the things you're missing out on because you don't speak the language. issues in the country, events, etc. when i think back to me previous stay in japan, i'm wondering how on earth i was able to get by with the little japanese i knew in the very beginning.
Undergrad courses, yes. I agree.
I would beg to differ about how much that "lot" is in just a year, but I don't want to sidetrack the issue here.
Click to expand...
well yes, a 'lot' is a pretty vague word. but let's say that i went from advanced beginner to intermediate/upper-intermediate level.
You would be surprised to learn how many foreigners don't have that logical attitude!
Besides, there are branches of foreign companies here that don't use so much Japanese in the office.
True. What line of work are you hoping to be in?
Click to expand...
i was thinking of majoring in international culture/relations, so i would like to do something in that field. i don't know specifically what though. i think it's been established that most undergraduate students end up doing something completely unrelated to their studies. even law students! or so i was told by the university at least. but it must be really strange for a law student to not work in law-related fields if you ask me...
that's true, culturally different can have a bad connotation for us foreigners. but let's face it, if you all your japanese co-workers go out for dinner after work, and they don't even consider asking you just because you're a foreigner, then that's being treated badly for sure.
 
well, good to hear that you are being treated like everyone else.
But above all, do you enjoy your work, along with the long working hours?
alright alright, i have to say you've got me there. all foreigners would like to be treated better.
 
lullemans72 said:
a lot of people say that it's incredibly easy to live in japan without knowing japanese. i personally find that extremely intimidating.
Click to expand...
Regardless, it happens a lot.

for those people who stay in japan short term, and who are like the students you described, it's easy i guess.
Click to expand...
Not just short-term. You can live in bigger cities where English abounds. Work places like schools often/usually require teachers to speak NO Japanese in the classrooms, and their J co-workers want to practice their English.

but i know i couldn't live in japan without feeling guilty if i didn't speak as much japanese as possible. just think about all the things you're missing out on because you don't speak the language.
Click to expand...
All good honest decent issues. Now, just try learning when you are surrounded by the exotic land one came to see, when one is working in a nearly English-only environment, when one's coworkers are often other native English speakers (who encourage you to go out with them, and who only speak English, thus exerting peer pressure on you to socialize or be ostracized)...

It takes a lot of discipline to study on your own under those conditions. And, learning is not a rapid thing for most.

well yes, a 'lot' is a pretty vague word. but let's say that i went from advanced beginner to intermediate/upper-intermediate level.
Click to expand...
In what period of time? And, just how did you do it? What did you miss out while studying (and how often)? That's my point above.

You might be surprised to know how many lawyers' resumes I've proofread for their applications to conversation schools.

But if they never speak about it, you'll never know.
 
This has to be one of the more interesting threads posted in the past year on this forum. I'm also considering applying to work in Japan, but in a ryuugakusei center position. I'm still currently looking into what that entails in regards to work conditions behind the scenes.
 
What is ryugakusei center position? Administration for ryugakusei in some university?
 
but you're mainly talking about english teachers i assume. with all due respect for those who are teachers, i don't want to become some full-time teacher at some school or whatever. it would be a total waste of time and resources if i did attend a japanese university and all i could do is become a teacher in the end. to become some language instructor is truly the last thing i want to do in japan.
again, are you mainly talking about teaching jobs, or also other jobs albeit where lots of foreigners work? i can imagine that it would be difficult to study japanese on your own when you're surrounded by native english speakers. in such a situation, what i would suggest is still to make as many japanese friends as possible, and to force yourself to make some extra time where you only go out with those japanese people.
In what period of time? And, just how did you do it? What did you miss out while studying (and how often)? That's my point above.
Click to expand...
well, i lived in japan for about a year, and i attended a japanese language school. what exactly do you mean by what did i miss out on while studying?
also, needless to say i was surrounded by nothing but foreigners at my language school. i hung out with them quite often, and i learned quite a lot of english too may i add. but at the same time, i also forced myself (not that i saw it as a hassle, on the contrary) to meet with japanese people. and i did that quite often too.
You might be surprised to know how many lawyers' resumes I've proofread for their applications to conversation schools.
Click to expand...
are you serious? are there lawyers who apply for a job at conversation schools??
But if they never speak about it, you'll never know.
Click to expand...
true. however, i'm talking about if they were to go out after work, or just do things right in front of you without including you as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
The Best Degree to look for a job in Japan?
2
Replies
31
Views
46K
hellohello2
H
Medical Field jobs in Japan for Foreigners?
Replies
12
Views
53K
Korbis
  • Locked
Working in the porn industry as a foreigner
Replies
19
Views
102K
Sachu7928
S
S
Civilian Jobs on Okinawa
2
Replies
37
Views
45K
Captlongdong
C
T
Jobs on military bases in Okinawa
2
Replies
28
Views
40K
Time2PCS
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…