What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

[pipokun]

So carrying the card is a point here, right?
Those who have to carry the card are in the different category, and it is no different from other countries. Of course, different countries, different procedures.

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.

 

[orochi]

So carrying the card is a point here, right?

You guys were talking about cards, right? Cards are carried. Registries are kept at municipal offices.

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.

If you're suspected of having committed a crime.

 

[pipokun]

If you're suspected of having committed a crime.

Really?

SECTION II REQUIREMENTS FOR RESIDENCE
(Carrying and Presentation of Passport or Permit)
Article 23.
2. The alien stipulated in the preceding paragraph shall show his passport or permit specified in the same paragraph to an immigration inspector, immigration control officer, police official, maritime safety official or any other official of the state or local public entity as provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance, if such an official requests the presentation of the passport or permit in the performance of his duties.
http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/icrr-09.html

Unfortunately, the (alleged and unknown) bike theft investigation by the cop is also their duty.

 

[orochi]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.

 

[Glenski]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.

Yup, that's the reality of Japan. Sad but true.

 

[Glenski]

All Japanese are registered in the family registry quite unique (and notorious for some) registration.

Not sure what you mean by notorious. Even so, foreigners are listed in family registries in unique ways, too. I'm on my wife's registry, but since I am not Japanese, she is listed as head of household, and if she dies, my kid is next in line, not me.

And actually, what Japan is planning next is something like a SSN in the US to cover all people.

It's what they have tried to do, but even the local citizens have fought against that (and won).

Showing the card upon request is not treating you as a criminal.

Being asked to produce it in certain instances is definitely being treated like a criminal.

case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.

case 2. Debito himself was stopped (and only a handful of caucasians on his flight) for reasons of G-8 security.

 

[Rizaric]

I've been stopped on my bike 2 times in the span of a year and a bit. The first time, I was riding home from work (but I'd bought a fancy mountain bike from a friend who was leaving Japan) and was pursued by a bike gang of cops saying 'sumimasen!'. They asked me for the bike registration, and I explained to them that I'd bought it off someone else and hadn't had the time to go register it.

The lady wrote down my bike model/licence? number and basically told me that I should go and get the biker registered to me right away. They were very courteous the whole time and I was courteous back, so 5 minutes later I was on my way home with no trouble.

The third time, it was kind of my fault- myself and a Japanese friend were both riding on a single bike to pick up some late night snacks (2am) from the convenience store and stupidly rode in front of the Koban . So the bike gang pursued us again, 2 junior officers and 1 old guy. Basically the junior officers were nice and polite and saying that we shouldn't do that, especially in front of the Koban. The old guy was a crass ***, and I couldn't understand about half of what he said, so I ended up kind of ignoring him. My poor buddy got lots of flak though- "You should teach people from other countries about Japan's law! What if little kids saw you riding 2 to a bike, they would do it too!" They asked my for my foreigner registration card - as the store was just out 3 minutes from my apartment, I'd not brought it, so I told them that. They also asked and other questions like "How long are you staying in Japan"- I told them that I was leaving the country soon (which was actually a couple months, but it's all relative I guess). With that they kind of relented and let us go on our way, warning us not to do it again and telling me to carry my passport/card at all time.

All in all, I don't think the experiences with them were too bad, they were fairly nice and didn't go on power trips or anything. Pretty much they were doing their jobs. I think if you are cordial with them and explain the situation properly, they will respond accordingly. I too have heard of them stopping some of my Japanese friends on bikes in similar manners- if anything its kind of just like a checkstop.

 

[Glenski]

"You should teach people from other countries about Japan's law! What if little kids saw you riding 2 to a bike, they would do it too!"

Hysterical statement, since Japanese people do this all the time.

 

[pipokun]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.

A sort of yes.

Again, there was a mysterious case in Tokyo or Saitama where a mysterious young Japanese woman did not say anything at all, even a word, had to stay for a night at a police station.

Of course, the media barked loudly and the police apologized what their wrong-doing. But just a word, or cooperative attitude, from her might save her precious time. I just hope she learned a lesson from her experience.

 

[pipokun]

...
case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.
case 2. Debito himself was stopped (and only a handful of caucasians on his flight) for reasons of G-8 security.

Both cases are just isolated examples, but, of course, they might be terrible experiences for them.

You've already told the stories in other threads, so please keep going there.

case 1. It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.

case 2. Right. It was just the G8. It was good to know that the cop was that kind after the 2007 Heiligendamm. The more you become more loud, the more people, at least I, would tell their kind attitude, at least, of the young cop.

 

[orochi]

But just a word, or cooperative attitude, from her might save her precious time.

What I heard was that she was extremely shy. With that personality, she was probably shaken up pretty badly with the police harassing her for personal information when she had committed no crime.

Rather than her having been more cooperative, perhaps we should hold police officers to their own regulations and the law.

case 1. It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.

So people on bikes are probably not businessmen. So they should be stopped. Is that what you are trying to say? Sadly, there is no legal ground for questioning people based on their type of employment. Yet another irrelevant point.

 

[pipokun]

What I heard was that she was extremely shy. With that personality, she was probably shaken up pretty badly with the police harassing her for personal information when she had committed no crime.

Rather than her having been more cooperative, perhaps we should hold police officers to their own regulations and the law.

Maybe, therefore she is just an exceptional case as Debito's ones.

So people on bikes are probably not businessmen. So they should be stopped. Is that what you are trying to say? Sadly, there is no legal ground for questioning people based on their type of employment. Yet another irrelevant point.

No, not about the type of employment, but what I want to say is another generalization out of rare cases.

 

[Dogen Z]

Whaaa!!

Whaaa! Japan won't accept me on my own terms. Whaaa! I can't act in the self-centered way I can back home.
There are a lot of whiners here. It would be good to show some maturity.

 

[orochi]

Ocean Dude,
At least read the thread before making baseless comments like that.

Maybe, therefore she is just an exceptional case as Debito's ones.

What about holding police officers to follow their regulations and the law?

 

[Glenski]

Isolated examples? Well, what do you want -- a listing of web sites that details many accounts of such things? (Psst, read Debito's web site; all I have space for here is the isolated example or two, and it is NOT exceptional.)

It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.

And, you know this..... how? Are you trying to say that extremely few businesspeople ride bikes?

Right. It was just the G8.

Why so smug and sarcastic? Did you even read the story itself? That was the story given by the polite policeman. Debito's case regarding G-8 summit security and gaijins being stopped was not unique, either. Read up before writing smart-aleck remarks.

 

[Pachipro]

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.

Being asked to produce it in certain instances is definitely being treated like a criminal.

Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.

Therefore, it is not only in Japan that this is happening, but it is also happening in the country of your birth, the so-called "freeest nation on the planet". IMO a gaijin has more freedoms in Japan than here in the US these days.

 

[Emoni]

Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.
Therefore, it is not only in Japan that this is happening, but it is also happening in the country of your birth, the so-called "freeest nation on the planet". IMO a gaijin has more freedoms in Japan than here in the US these days.

I do live here now, (just got back) but didn't know about this. I knew things had gotten bad, but every day I find out to what degree more and more.

 

[KirinMan]

Both cases are just isolated examples, but, of course, they might be terrible experiences for them.

.

Originally Posted by Glenski
...
case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.

If this is true.....you call 117 times stopped by the cops as isolated?
What is your definition of the word?
The other thing that makes me shake my head here is how in the world did the guy know it was 117 times. Maybe it was like saying Methuselah was a 1000 years old, just a figure of speech to say that the guy had been stopped a lot.

 

[Dogen Z]

Carrying a gaijin card is not a big hardship. In fact, it's convenient since it spares me the trouble of carrying my passport all the time. That would be a pain. And showing the card to authorities to prove I haven't overstayed my visa, which is a growing problem these days, is, at worst, a minor inconvenience. I don't mind it at all.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I just don't see all this discrimatory behaviour by police. I regulary have to go to the 4 local police stations around my area(not kobans, the headquaters for each region where I live) to obtain parking permits for the 15 cars that my comapny owns. I have to show ID everytime I submit the forms(the drivers of the cars have to provide copies of their licence and there are a whole heap of other forms to submitt, but the submitter has to show some two forms of ID, I always show my licence and health card and never once have I been asked for my gaijin card.

 

[Emoni]

That's the initial reaction... then you learn more and have to deal with it in other situations and other associated issues and it becomes to represent more of a risk than an inconvience if you dare forget one day, or you end up having to deal with problems like Kirin or other members of this board.

Speaking of which is anyone aware of maybe a certain "look for" list that might be followed when stopping people for gaijin card checks or bikes? Things that set it off?

 

[orochi]

It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens.

Just because it happens somewhere else doesn't instantly make it okay that it happens here.

Carrying a gaijin card is not a big hardship.

That's not really the argument that we're having though. As I mentioned above, you should read the thread.

I just don't see all this discrimatory behaviour by police.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I always show my licence and health card and never once have I been asked for my gaijin card.

We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations, though. That is a completely different issue, and has little to do with police stops or rights as a foreigner.

 

[FrustratedDave]

We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations, though. That is a completely different issue, and has little to do with police stops or rights as a foreigner.

And you missed the point. If they were being discriminatory towards foriegners, would it be also fair to asumme that this was happening across the board? So my experience of being asked for two ID's and one of them not being the gaijin card shows me that they are not being discriminatory towards foriengers in general.

Unfortunately no one is seeing the reality here, we are all subjected to profiling, some just choose to believe that it is racial(of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?). Case in point, if went into a very high profile jewlery store with bare feet , ripped shorts and a dirty singlet, how seriously would I be taken even in America? I would probably be watched like a hawk b/c I have the apperance of having no money. So a cop stops you on your bike ,is it b/c you are foriegn or b/c of what you look like in dress?

 

[Glenski]

Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.

I don't have to look it up. This is Japan, not the USA, and there is no Patriot Act here.

Japan has suffered from terrorism, yes, but do you realize that none of it has come from foreigners? It has all (100%) been caused by Japanese citizens.

Let's not say what is good for the USA is good for Japan, ok? No foreigners spread sarin gas in the Tokyo subways.

Oh, and I believe the Patriot Act itself has come under fire as being unconstitutional, has it not?

Unfortunately no one is seeing the reality here, we are all subjected to profiling, some just choose to believe that it is racial(of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?).

Excuse me, Dave, but just because 100% of the foreigners are not racially profiled, that doesn't mean this is a nice situation. How many need to fall into that category of discrimination before you believe it?

So a cop stops you on your bike ,is it b/c you are foriegn or b/c of what you look like in dress?

And, how do you respond to the reports that cops stop foreigners because of bicycles being stolen, yet they don't really come up with reasons other than that? I mean, they didn't say FOREIGNERS are stealing bikes, just that bikes are being stolen, yet many people have written about having been stopped, then watch as police blatantly let Japanese on bikes pass them by. If they're going to stop people on bikes due to bike theft in the area, they should stop everyone.

 

[Ashikaga]

Looks like to me this is another "What is wrong with Japanese police" thread.
Sharing your personal experience about dealing with the police is fine but apart from reading about peoples' views about the police and the laws concerning foreigners, I don't see how this is going anywhere with most of us just repeating ourselves over and over. Unfortunately, since we do not have a representative from the police here to answer any of the questions raised, that is all we can do.

Some of us see a great injustice in how the police sometimes stops people for questioning, some others feel it is just the way it is and not worth making too big a deal out of it, then there are those who are somewhere in the middle, who thinks it is wrong but it is something you just have to deal with living in Japan.

Those of us who live here (in Japan) and personally encounter such incidents and feel our rights are violated, take actions. Consult a lawyer.

Those of us who have only heard about it from friends/media reports/studies, etc., just be aware of it in case it happens to us one day, yet may want to wait until we gain a certain level of understanding of every aspect of what this culture/society is like through first-hand experience. This might take actually living here for a long time.

And those of us who live here and do not see much wrong in how things are handled and those who have problems with it yet not enough to really question it, let us remind ourselves there ARE those feel this is a serious issue and try to see things from others' perspectives.