Was Hiroshima Necessary?

[Elayne]

dsvlee, why do you come to this forum if you so clearly hate Japanese? Do you come to troll? Do you think your hateful speech will somehow convince people to your way of thinking?

I have a Chinese friend in real life who doesn't like what Japan had done in the past. But he, like me, thinks we should learn from the past, not keep dredging it up with a broken record hate speech. I think we can agree there are many countries that have done bad things, but we move on.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

dvslee = racist

that seems a bit strong

But I was wondering why Japan had built so many nuke facilities in such a narrow place?.

Even though the rift is on the East side of Japan the nuclear power stations are almost completely on the East because that's the poor side, the West side is where the elites live.

Also Japan got pulled into the war because they relied on oil and the USA controlled the oil, so you can't blame them for wanting something with a more readily available fuel source.

Nuclear power is not dangerous.

TEPCO is dangerous.

Because they are greedy and reactor cores cost money. Even before the giant tsunami hit, they should have already scrammed the reactors.
Even after it hit they had the chance to push the button, but they did not.

 

[nahadef]

that seems a bit strong.

Try substituting Japanese with any other race in his posts. He's done this in a number of threads already. The guy thinks all living Japanese are war-minded Nazis. And anything not supportive of China means you hate China and think it's evil. Sounds like the Chinese version of a KKK member to me.
I don't think it's too strong to say at all.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Even before the giant tsunami hit, they should have already scrammed the reactors.
Even after it hit they had the chance to push the button, but they did not."

They probably just didn't have the time to call a meeting among all the company personnel who were important enough to be included in any consensus decision.

Japanese management style probably isn't well-suited for quick decision-making, especially during an unanticipated disaster. If they'd already had a disaster plan, things would have turned out differently. The real TEPCO stupidity or greed occurred with the failure to have such a plan in place.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Volunteer Fighting Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am surprised no one has brought this obvious point up yet. The Japanese were not necessarily going to surrender. I mean come on, a nation getting ready for all out war to defend the home islands... to me immediate unconditional surrender without feeling the power of the bombs, was very unlikely.

 

[Chidoriashi]

It makes zero sense to say that a people would rather die than surrender, then claim they surrendered because they were faced with death.

The Japanese people did not surrender, the emperor chose to surrender on their behalf, because he knew they faced utter annihilation from the bombs. The emperor if I remember right was contemplating surrender, before and certainly after the bombs, but the militaristic nut balls trying to run the country would not let him, in fact there was even effort after the bombs to try and prevent his announcement of surrender from being broadcast to the Japanese people.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The Japanese people did not surrender, the emperor chose to surrender on their behalf, because he knew they faced utter annihilation from the bombs. The emperor if I remember right was contemplating surrender, before and certainly after the bombs, but the militaristic nut balls trying to run the country would not let him, in fact there was even effort after the bombs to try and prevent his announcement of surrender from being broadcast to the Japanese people.

First you say the Emperor chose to surrender.

Then you say the nuts running the country would not let him.

Yes, there were some nuts who tried to prevent the Emperor announcing surrender, but they were few enough that they were quickly defeated.

So...who was in charge?

Anyway, the question is if the bombs were necessary. You say the Emperor was contemplating surrender, but he was doing quite a bit more than that. It was decided to surrender in fact, the Japanese had made overtures to the Soviets to negotiate it, this was known to Allied intelligence, but the Japanese were holding out for one last battle victory to gain a bargaining advantage.

In fact the war could have ended much sooner if only the allies had accepted a conditional surrender. Instead they demanded an unconditional surrender which prolonged the war and got thousands more killed on both sides.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Volunteer Fighting Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am surprised no one has brought this obvious point up yet.

It was brought up.

The Japanese were not necessarily going to surrender. I mean come on, a nation getting ready for all out war to defend the home islands... to me immediate unconditional surrender without feeling the power of the bombs, was very unlikely.

"Unconditional" being the operative word. It was not necessary to have unconditional surrender. Conditional surrender was a fine option. So was a blockade. They both beat the hell out of massacring civilians and children in their homes, which I say again, did little to nothing to speed the end of the war.

I think its much more likely the Emperor was more concerned with Russia's entry into the war against Japan than the bombs, and again, this is evidenced by the greater number of mass civilian death in the firebombing of Tokyo months earlier.

 

[dsvlee]

dsvlee, why do you come to this forum if you so clearly hate Japanese? Do you come to troll? Do you think your hateful speech will somehow convince people to your way of thinking?

I have a Chinese friend in real life who doesn't like what Japan had done in the past. But he, like me, thinks we should learn from the past, not keep dredging it up with a broken record hate speech. I think we can agree there are many countries that have done bad things, but we move on.

What I said is only about nazy Japan and those who support nazy now. The post I gave were based on truth, and nothing to be exaggerated. If everybody really moves on, this topic about "American's nuke bombs to Japan" would not even exist.

 

[dsvlee]

dvslee = racist

nahadef, totally Nazy supportor. Care nothing for WWII victims.

 

[dsvlee]

Try substituting Japanese with any other race in his posts. He's done this in a number of threads already. The guy thinks all living Japanese are war-minded Nazis. And anything not supportive of China means you hate China and think it's evil. Sounds like the Chinese version of a KKK member to me.
I don't think it's too strong to say at all.

Hey, donot make things up. Everytime I said sth about WWII or territory dispute between Japan and other country, it's you to jump out defending Japan or even nazy Japan for no reason.
If I am racist as you describe, then you must be nazy.
Another thing you are good at is just cursing in English.

 

[dsvlee]

Only in 2013 4, Japanese's prime holded up his arm in the air, saying"Japanese Emperor Banzai!"for 3 times in a national speech just as Japanese nazy did during and before WWII.
This is a Japanese style of "Hi hitler".
So any peaceful lover from Japan, can you guys explain this?
If not, when I said Japan still has many nazys, you can just shut up and listen.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Nuclear power is not dangerous.

TEPCO is dangerous.

Nuclear power in one of the most earthquake and tsunami prone countries in the world, with the reactors on the west coast where all the tsunami come in, IS dangerous. TEPCO just makes it even more so.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

again - why should the allied have risked any more lives than absolutely necessary?

How many times do I have to say THERE WAS NO EXTRA RISK. The bombs did not end the war!!!

The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!!

Was that enough times?

oh yea - because he was worried about himself,

worried that he might get pulled up for the actions HE took. for the war HE started.

Did you read that somewhere?

It seems singularly odd to me that if that was the case, that he decided to surrender while so many in the cabinet were willing to fight on....if we are going to say that the bombs ended the war.

But suddenly it makes sense if the cause was the Russian entry into the war. Far better to be captured by the Americans than the Soviets. I don't think you need 20/20 hindsight to see that, but boy, history sure does prove it! The man got off scot free! MacArthur himself was heavily involved in making it look like Hirohito was an angel completely aloof from the whole war! And what a CROCK!

 

[Chidoriashi]

First you say the Emperor chose to surrender.

Then you say the nuts running the country would not let him.

Yes, there were some nuts who tried to prevent the Emperor announcing surrender, but they were few enough that they were quickly defeated.

So...who was in charge?

Anyway, the question is if the bombs were necessary. You say the Emperor was contemplating surrender, but he was doing quite a bit more than that. It was decided to surrender in fact, the Japanese had made overtures to the Soviets to negotiate it, this was known to Allied intelligence, but the Japanese were holding out for one last battle victory to gain a bargaining advantage.

In fact the war could have ended much sooner if only the allies had accepted a conditional surrender. Instead they demanded an unconditional surrender which prolonged the war and got thousands more killed on both sides.

Indeed who was in charge? The point was there was dissension within the government. Japan's surrender was not so certain and not so cut and dry. And as you said yourself they chose to hold out for a conditional surrender. The simple fact is we cannot know for sure that the Japanese would have surrendered (unconditionally) in the same time frame as they did without the use of the bombs. And honestly even if the war only lasted for another month or something, all the of the conventional bombing that had already killed more people than the nukes, would have certainly continued until Japan submitted.

And yes I too believe the war would have ended sooner if the allies had accepted conditional, but nothing less than unconditional surrender was decided on years before, and for reasons dating back to the poor way WW1 had ended. Conditional surrender was not going to happen and whether or not it would have been okay is a totally different discussion.

 

[Elayne]

What I said is only about nazy Japan and those who support nazy now. The post I gave were based on truth, and nothing to be exaggerated. If everybody really moves on, this topic about "American's nuke bombs to Japan" would not even exist.

That's not what I said, read it again. When did I say we should avoid discussing history? It seems to be most others here wanting to discuss history, and you; hate, hate, hate, "nazy," hate, hate.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!! The bombs did not end the war!!!

Was that enough times?"

Do you have a God complex or something? You can repeat it until you're blue in the face (instead of red in the face, for once), but that doesn't make it so. How about some valid sources when you dispute a fact?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How about some valid sources when you dispute a fact?

This from a guy who has quoted no one and posted zero links thus far....(sigh)

Dispute a fact? More like dispute opinion at best and propaganda at worst. To call that fact only shows how closed your mind is and how complete your grade school indoctrination is.

Look, Japan was being bombed with impunity. Kobe and Tokyo were severely firebombed. March 9th saw more civilians killed by firebombing than either atom bomb, and that was 5 months previous. More civilian dead meant little to the leadership. Bigger bombs meant little.

This is from wiki, which I am sure you will not accept, and you won't even bother to try and prove its false or provide a counter quote:

Until 9 August, the war council had still insisted on its four conditions for surrender. On that day Hirohito ordered Kido to "quickly control the situation... because the Soviet Union has declared war against us."

Then:

On 10 August, the Japanese government presented a letter of protest for the atomic bombings to the government of the United States via the government of Switzerland.[133] On 12 August the Emperor informed the imperial family of his decision to surrender. One of his uncles, Prince Asaka, then asked whether the war would be continued if the kokutai could not be preserved. Hirohito simply replied "Of course."[134]

So he would have continued the war if he thought there was no chance to save the throne. There would have been no chance to save the throne with the Soviets. He thought there was a chance with the Americans, and boy was he ever right!

This is from the horse's mouth. What's your proof of otherwise? Are you going to bring up some events in the barn across the street, or perhaps a duck in a pond nearby? How are you going to trump the horse's mouth??

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The simple fact is we cannot know for sure that the Japanese would have surrendered (unconditionally) in the same time frame as they did without the use of the bombs.

As much as so many other "facts" yes we can. The Soviets promised to enter the war at Yalta. They entered the war on literally the last day allowed for in the agreement. That this coincided with the A-bombing of Nagasaki is coincidence from the Soviet side at least.

I know some people want to call this revisionism, but in fact its just dealing with facts that have finally come to light and being accepted in a post-Cold war world; one of the point of the Cold War being to make it seem like Communists never did anything worth while ie. deny that the Soviets had anything to do with ending the war against the Germans and Japanese. And of course the point was to blow out of proportion all achievements of America.

Some of you are simply stymied in Cold War propaganda and information suppression.

Conditional surrender was not going to happen

Turning the sun blue would be an impossibility. Deciding on conditional surrender was not so. It was a pure decision of men, and in fact, MacArthur essentially changed it after the fact by leaving the Emperor on the throne, the main condition the Japanese wanted, and MacArthur did this much to the anger and frustration of a great many people.

....and whether or not it would have been okay is a totally different discussion.

Nice try. Its totally relevant to the discussion of if the bombs were necessary OR NOT. By simply accepting a conditional surrender, even if you think the bombs gained unconditional surrender (and I DONT) those WAR CRIMES would never have happened.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

From Fleet Admiral Chester William Nimitz:

I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life... We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything.

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into war. ... The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I did find the Wiki article you're quoting, and here is a complete quote.

"On August 6, 1945, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, 1945, in accordance with the Yalta agreements, but in violation of the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on the Empire of Japan, and soon after midnight on August 9, 1945, the Soviet Union invaded the Imperial Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. Later that day, the United States dropped another atomic bomb, this time on the city of Nagasaki. The combined shock of these events caused Emperor Hirohito to intervene and order the Big Six to accept the terms for ending the war that the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration."

And with that, I'm done here. I find you to be a singularly (for this otherwise civil forum) noxious person to discuss things with, and you bring out the worst in me. I understand why some here refuse to debate with you. No more for me.

 

[Chidoriashi]

I did find the Wiki article you're quoting, and here is a complete quote.

"On August 6, 1945, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, 1945, in accordance with the Yalta agreements, but in violation of the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on the Empire of Japan, and soon after midnight on August 9, 1945, the Soviet Union invaded the Imperial Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. Later that day, the United States dropped another atomic bomb, this time on the city of Nagasaki. The combined shock of these events caused Emperor Hirohito to intervene and order the Big Six to accept the terms for ending the war that the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration."

And with that, I'm done here. I find you to be a singularly (for this otherwise civil forum) noxious person to discuss things with, and you bring out the worst in me. I understand why some here refuse to debate with you. No more for me.

I totally agree with this and now cannot even fathom what came over me to continue to dialogue with him this long. I ignored some of his obnoxious pr*ck faced posts he already put up from the get go on this thread, perhaps in hopes it would be possible to have a discussion with him, but again all he cares about is asserting how right he is and how wrong and stupid, and brainwashed etc.. etc.. etc.. everyone else is despite the fact we are talking about something nobody can know for sure.

Were the bombs necessary? It just a matter of opinion, and to me it is simply unclear what the Japanese would have done and how soon without the use of the bombs. What is indisputable though, is that unconditional surrender did not happen until AFTER the bombs were dropped, and nobody can know for sure what would have happened otherwise.

And Zorro to me that is the bottom line. Whether the Allies should have been willing to concede to a conditional surrender is a different discussion and beside the point, because until that is established, the answer to whether or not the bombs where necessary would change for many people. Under the circumstances of "unconditional surrender" plenty of things point to that not happening without the bombs. And of course the allies did not want the soviets involved in post war Japan and of course America wanted to flex some muscle, and probably pass it off as saving American lives. So they decided to act sooner than later to ensure the result they wanted.

So be it causation, correlation, or coincidence (which I highly doubt), bombs were dropped and unconditional surrender happened. Without them I say who knows, but probably at least one more month, and what the heck four more months, or another year of war?.. they all equal the same thing! more death, and probably more than the bombs dished out, with the really sh*tty result of the Soviets getting their say in what happens to and who occupies postwar Japan.

And that is all from me because I know you will never concede in the least no matter what the topic is, and you honestly just present yourself as too much of an arrogant pr*ck to be bothered with. Bye.

 

[Woahify]

What I said is only about nazy Japan and those who support nazy now. The post I gave were based on truth, and nothing to be exaggerated. If everybody really moves on, this topic about "American's nuke bombs to Japan" would not even exist.

You claim that if everyone would just forget about the atomic bombs and move on, then this topic would have never been started..

Yet, you continue to claim that we should all should remember and condemn the horrible atrocities on Chinese people. Why should we remember war crimes committed to Chinese, but not a war crime against Japanese? You shouldn't be telling others to "move on and forget," when you can't even do so yourself. Practice what you preach.

 

[Woahify]

Only in 2013 4, Japanese's prime holded up his arm in the air, saying"Japanese Emperor Banzai!"for 3 times in a national speech just as Japanese nazy did during and before WWII.
This is a Japanese style of "Hi hitler".
So any peaceful lover from Japan, can you guys explain this?
If not, when I said Japan still has many nazys, you can just shut up and listen.

Hahahahah, just posting this shows how much you actually know about the Japanese people. I bet you got all of your info on Japan out of some censored, altered CCP textbook. I have a question for you. Have you ever actually even been to Japan? Have you even ever met a real Japanese person? Hahahah, you are funny dsvlee!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I did find the Wiki article you're quoting, and here is a complete quote.

" The combined shock of these events caused Emperor Hirohito to intervene and order the Big Six to accept the terms for ending the war that the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration."

Yeah, I can see why I am so annoying. I quote the horses mouth, you quote...I don't know who...finally...and I am bound to point that out. I know. What an @$$ I am.

And you have just been honest and polite and never thrown any obvious bull into this debate or any other or flatly ignored anything. Sure.

And with that, I'm done here. I find you to be a singularly (for this otherwise civil forum) noxious person to discuss things with, and you bring out the worst in me. I understand why some here refuse to debate with you. No more for me.

I am noxious for opening eyes, or trying to. Yeah. Okay. Bye.