Was Hiroshima Necessary?

[Mark of Zorro]

Without them I say who knows, but probably at least one more month, and what the heck four more months, or another year of war?..

Its only sensible to say we would not know exactly what would have happened of course. But I am pretty certain that the Japanese would not have waited until all of Hokkaido was taken by the Soviets.

?.. they all equal the same thing! more death,

So if I shoot an intruder in the head or I shoot YOU in the head its all the same...death...? Ummm NO. Who dies DOES matter, and its OBVIOUS. Anyone picks up a weapon, they become a combatant and you KILL THEM. That is okay. But you DO NOT play God and kill babies in cribs in the belief that soldiers lives will be saved. DANG IT. And you guys think I am the noxious person here!!!!

Do you honestly expect me to sit here and be generous and kind while you talk about killing civilians as if its a trifle??? Seriously???

My attitude is not about a difference of opinion...its about support for heinous, disgusting WAR CRIMES and MASS MURDER. Its just intolerable!!!!!

 

[Elayne]

I did find the Wiki article you're quoting, and here is a complete quote.

"On August 6, 1945, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, 1945, in accordance with the Yalta agreements, but in violation of the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on the Empire of Japan, and soon after midnight on August 9, 1945, the Soviet Union invaded the Imperial Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. Later that day, the United States dropped another atomic bomb, this time on the city of Nagasaki. The combined shock of these events caused Emperor Hirohito to intervene and order the Big Six to accept the terms for ending the war that the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration."

And with that, I'm done here. I find you to be a singularly (for this otherwise civil forum) noxious person to discuss things with, and you bring out the worst in me. I understand why some here refuse to debate with you. No more for me.

Soon after joining this forum I found Mark of Zorro adds nothing to discussions, and likes to argue and insult. You should block him as I have.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Could you tell me how to block someone? I'm trying to figure out how to do that, but can't.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Soon after joining this forum I found Mark of Zorro adds nothing to discussions, and likes to argue and insult. You should block him as I have.

I argue? What is this? The chit chat section?

I insult? Okay. Guilty. But it comes from having my intelligence insulted.

I add nothing? Right. No links. No quotes. No facts. (sigh)

I humbly apologize for not being able to handle the most ridiculous of cognitive dissonances. You just stick with your U.S. government grade school propaganda. They never lied to you. Ever.

Edit: I got to add, it took her only 3 days max (joined 3 days ago) to filter through my 893 current posts to declare that I add nothing to discussions. So lets see....why would I possibly be frustrated with people like this? I hope no one is straining their brain over that mystery!

Can't wait to see Elayne debate Roland on guns. No doubt she has more patience than me, but it will get real interesting when it runs out.

 

[Elayne]

Could you tell me how to block someone? I'm trying to figure out how to do that, but can't.

Can go to their profile and hit ignore. Or go to your Settings > Edit ignore list and type in the name.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

It works! Thanks, Elayne.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Now, let the obfuscations begin. My prediction is that the point that the bombs did not end the war and obviously would not end the war will be ignored, and instead supporters will start with the excuses as to why America "had" to do it...

Sometimes I wish my predictions would not come true....

Even as a mere "contention" the idea that the bombs did not end the war got ignored. And its amazing how some people are HARD-WIRED to not even entertain the possibility.

I will chuck this in however:

When addressing the civilians on his decision to surrender, Hirohito did not mention the Soviets, but he did mention the A-bombs as a reason.

When addressing the military on his decision to surrender, Hirohito mentioned the Soviets, but did not mention the A-bombs.

When speaking to his chief advisor Koichi Kido, Hirohito mentioned the Soviets, but did not mention the A-bombs.

When addressing his Uncle on his decision, he mentioned neither the bombs nor the Soviets, but merely stated that he would continue the war if there was no chance to preserve the throne.

So this leaves us with the question of when a monarch stops politicking and starts speaking the truth. And I am thinking that if there is ever a moment, it won't be when speaking to the people or the military, but when speaking to his own royal family and a close second, to his advisor. So I place more weight on what he said to his uncle and advisor. And his best chance to preserve the throne was to surrender the Allies at that time, not because of the bombs, but because if the Soviets took control of Japan the throne would be finished. And so while he did mention the Soviet entry into the war to his advisor directly, it seems to me he mentioned them indirectly to his uncle.

So the only time he mentioned the bombs as a reason to surrender was to the people, and that its when addressing the people that I expect him to be truthful dead last. To everyone else, it was the Soviet entry into the war.

 

[dsvlee]

That's not what I said, read it again. When did I say we should avoid discussing history? It seems to be most others here wanting to discuss history, and you; hate, hate, hate, "nazy," hate, hate.

So remember and feel sorry for those killed by Japanese Nazy was "hate" ,While blame American bombed those brainwashed Japanese nazy ppl in WWII was "discussing history"?
I did not point this out at first, everybody should know almost the whole nation of Japan at WWII were nazies. They even had 3 million children nazy soldiers.

 

[dsvlee]

There should be someone to blame for those innocent dead ppl in WWII. But the allies or USSR who tried to stop the war? Come on! It is the man who started the war should be blamed!
So all of you can really stop this naive topic. If you really feel sorry about those dead in Japan or other coutries you should be sorry for, you had better accuse Japanese nazy instead of American.

And by the way, I just have a strong opinnion about nazy. Maybe you donot know Chinese was supported by German at first stage of WWII to fight Japanese. But I here still insist nazies are evil and bad. So those from other countries not invaded by Japan in WWII, I hope you be mercy and having an open mind.
To those Japanese, I donot know how long will you stay on earth if you insist on doing the old way. You have so many earthquakes, and so little source. But you still keep taking Chinese and korean.s as your fake enemy. I can only say you r really brave!

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"I did not point this out at first, everybody should know almost the whole nation of Japan at WWII were nazies."

Well, now you've got my attention. That's a real bigoted, false statement there.

My father-in-law wasn't a Nazi. He was drafted into the Japanese infantry by the kempeitai, shipped off to the Philippines, and had a rifle stuck in his hands. He didn't want to kill anyone. He didn't want to be there, and catch the disease that eventually killed him, malaria. Japan was a dictatorship. The average soldier who served in WW II had no choice.

And btw, it's time for someone to tell you that you're misusing the word "Nazi" (and not spelling it right, either). "Nazi" is an abbreviation for members of the National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei, the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Learn something today dslvee. The word you are searching for is FASCIST. Nazis were a kind of fascist. Imperial Japan was fascist in a looser sense of the term. Please use the term fascist, as it makes more sense and will help prevent you looking silly.

As for almost the whole nation being fascist, that is saying too much. Certainly almost the whole nation bowed to fascism, and that is why all that stuff could happen.

And it could happen again. Look at how everyone has bowed to the government forcing teachers to sing "Kimigayo". Human weakness is darn near as scary as fascists.

 

[dsvlee]

"I did not point this out at first, everybody should know almost the whole nation of Japan at WWII were nazies."

Well, now you've got my attention. That's a real bigoted, false statement there.

My father-in-law wasn't a Nazi. He was drafted into the Japanese infantry by the kempeitai, shipped off to the Philippines, and had a rifle stuck in his hands. He didn't want to kill anyone. He didn't want to be there, and catch the disease that eventually killed him, malaria. Japan was a dictatorship. The average soldier who served in WW II had no choice.

And btw, it's time for someone to tell you that you're misusing the word "Nazi" (and not spelling it right, either). "Nazi" is an abbreviation for members of the National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei, the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

1st，i said "almost".
2nd, Japanese militarism is also called japanese nazy in Chinese. Although nazy is a word of some Germany party, it still can represent extreme nationalism. So if I used Japanese militarism, can you even know what it is?

 

[dsvlee]

Fascist, ok, thanks for this. Normal Chinese donot care differences between word fascist and nazy. In my oppinion is, to talk about Japanese Fascist, I think Chinese should have some position to talk, just like European can judge Germany Fascist first. Here in China, we just call them Japanese nazy, Japanese Fascist or Japanese millitarism. I think the confusion of nazy and fascist to Chinese is simillary with Yuan and Mongol Empire to westerner.

Learn something today dslvee. The word you are searching for is FASCIST. Nazis were a kind of fascist. Imperial Japan was fascist in a looser sense of the term. Please use the term fascist, as it makes more sense and will help prevent you looking silly.

As for almost the whole nation being fascist, that is saying too much. Certainly almost the whole nation bowed to fascism, and that is why all that stuff could happen.

And it could happen again. Look at how everyone has bowed to the government forcing teachers to sing "Kimigayo". Human weakness is darn near as scary as fascists.

Recently I have seen a German TV dramas with 3 set, Unsere M・ter, unsere V舩er, which told me every nazy or facist were just father, son or brother before or after they went to the battlefield.
Japan facist were normal persons before they came to China. But the pathetic thing was, they just turned when they came. And in Nanking Rape 1937, if they were not busy with rob, rape, burning and killing civilians, they could killed and captured all the defence force of Chinese army.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Well, I applaud you for taking my advice.

Next I suggest you spell it Nazi rather than Nazy, because when I first started reading your posts, I thought you meant navy.

Japan facist were normal persons before they came to China.

Its an interesting perspective. Its hard to identify the steps to becoming a fascist or a pawn of fascists.

As so many people know about me, and some hate me for it, but going along with your country's army into a foreign nation just because you were told to go is the road to fascism. That is exactly what I think the Japanese did. If they had refused to be wind up toy soldiers there would have been a much more peaceful time then. But they just obeyed orders like the stupid sheeple they were. And frankly, I don't think they are much the wiser today. So few even join the military, but I personally think its just them being sheeple in another manner. They don't join not because they are concerned about fascism rising again. They don't join because their friends aren't.

In America they join because so many others do and other sheeple motives. And they go to Iraq and Afghanistan without nearly enough thought, and its proven by how very, very few stood up and said "no". Even after all the lies were uncovered for all to see, they STILL went back for second tours of duty.

 

[pauro12]

I've watched in youtube (Second's from Disaster) about the Hiroshima bombing... The bombing for me is completely NEVER necessary for the Japanese were already losing the war.. Actually, what happened is (according to this documentary) that both Russia and America are racing of who would gonna make the Japanese surrender.. Though allies (Russia and America), both countries are of no trust with each other, hence have their own selfish plan.. Few days before the Hiroshima bombing, the Russians were already winning and is advancing rapidly inside Japan.. It is just that, the Americans wants Victory over Japan to be known as "Americans BEAT the Japanese", not the Russians beat the Japanese.. The Americans noticed that time that if they won't drop the bomb, the victory over Japan will be in the hands of the Russians (Russians were already winning the war in some parts of Japan where they commence attack).. So what comes in the mind of the Americans is like this, "Which among this two will make the Japanese surrender faster; A single bomb that will take an hour to annihilate thousands of civilians and will drop even more if they will not surrender(Americans), or a legion of thousands that will SOMEHOW take time to make the Japanese surrender (Russians).. I guess a bomb that will choose no one of who would it will hit will make it to the finish line thousand times faster than the other..So the americans at that time as I analyzed the documentary didn't really care about the types of the casualty but is so obsessed about the SELF victory over Japan...Please correct me if I'm wrong here, in case please provide me convincing infos.. Thanks!

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Yes, I think you're wrong there. If I recall right, the Soviets didn't even declare war on Japan until after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped.

The US "selfish plan" left Japan a free democracy and world economic power. Hmm, I wonder what the Soviets would have done to the place.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Yes, I think you're wrong there. If I recall right, the Soviets didn't even declare war on Japan until after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped.

(sigh) Its too bad this guy has blocked me. Would somebody else tell him that Russia agreed at Postdam to join the war against Japan 90 days after Germany was defeated at the request of the allies? (Not sure it will matter though. I think the guy might have alzheimer's, cause I am sure I have told him that simple fact before and more than once). Would someone also tell him that Truman went from happy about that to having serious misgivings over night? And that fact makes it look like Truman was in a big hurry to keep the Soviets out of it, and that looks like it explains the timing of the atom bombs....just as Truman knew the Soviets would enter the war.

But I guess you could retort that he also could have waived that stupid demand for unconditional surrender and just let the Japanese have the only cookie they wanted; preservation of the Emperor. That would have ended the war earlier. Course, I don't think Truman was sharp enough to realize that.

The US "selfish plan" left Japan a free democracy and world economic power.

World economic power. Okay. Free democracy? My foot. The U.S. government wields a lot of influence with what happens in Japan. Other than that, I would say Japan is about as much of a democracy as America, which is to say, it isn't. Its a representative democracy at best, and that is another ballgame entirely. At worst, its an oligarchy of the rich and powerful, again, just like America.

Hmm, I wonder what the Soviets would have done to the place.

Much worse. Yes, its true. Even considering the two atom bombs that murdered so many unarmed civilians. Hardly makes evil right just cause its "less evil than the other guy".

 

[pauro12]

Yes, I think you're wrong there. If I recall right, the Soviets didn't even declare war on Japan until after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped.

The US "selfish plan" left Japan a free democracy and world economic power. Hmm, I wonder what the Soviets would have done to the place.

No, The soviets agreed alliance to America and together attacked Japan.. It was after the defeat of Germany that they became allies.. Please watched the video in youtube, there was a documentary there.. Second's from disaster hiroshima bomb.. Either way, just merely basing on human moralities - There's no and will never have any reasons to kill civilians in a war...

 

[pauro12]

P.S Mark of Zorro would want to point something about this Thread, but yet you blocked him he says.. Either way, I guess you need to know somehow,,,

 

[pauro12]

Originally Posted by RolandtheHeadless

Yes, I think you're wrong there. If I recall right, the Soviets didn't even declare war on Japan until after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped.

(sigh) Its too bad this guy has blocked me. Would somebody else tell him that Russia agreed at Postdam to join the war against Japan 90 days after Germany was defeated at the request of the allies? (Not sure it will matter though. I think the guy might have alzheimer's, cause I am sure I have told him that simple fact before and more than once). Would someone also tell him that Truman went from happy about that to having serious misgivings over night? And that fact makes it look like Truman was in a big hurry to keep the Soviets out of it, and that looks like it explains the timing of the atom bombs....just as Truman knew the Soviets would enter the war.

But I guess you could retort that he also could have waived that stupid demand for unconditional surrender and just let the Japanese have the only cookie they wanted; preservation of the Emperor. That would have ended the war earlier. Course, I don't think Truman was sharp enough to realize that.

The US "selfish plan" left Japan a free democracy and world economic power.

World economic power. Okay. Free democracy? My foot. The U.S. government wields a lot of influence with what happens in Japan. Other than that, I would say Japan is about as much of a democracy as America, which is to say, it isn't. Its a representative democracy at best, and that is another ballgame entirely. At worst, its an oligarchy of the rich and powerful, again, just like America.


Hmm, I wonder what the Soviets would have done to the place.

Much worse. Yes, its true. Even considering the two atom bombs that murdered so many unarmed civilians. Hardly makes evil right just cause its "less evil than the other guy".

 

[nahadef]

It's hard to say what the Russians would have done. In Korea, the Russians occupied the North, and in the South, America did. Koreans ran their own elections and democratically elected a Communist government. America said it wasn't a real election, while Russia said it was. The communists fled north, the capitalists fled south. Russia left, and America is still there, the country divided and screwed up. As bad as North Korea is, America denied the will of the people there.
Hard to say what would have happened in Japan, but it's crazy to say, "Good thing we dropped those bombs on them, what if..."

 

[Mark of Zorro]

It's hard to say what the Russians would have done. In Korea, the Russians occupied the North, and in the South, America did. Koreans ran their own elections and democratically elected a Communist government.

I don't know enough about that history to dispute it. For now I simply believe it. But there is a big, big difference that has to be pointed out. Russia had some bad history with Japan it did not have with the Koreans. There was the Russo-Japanese War, and I am sure the Russians were still smarting from that. Also, there were border conflicts that escalated to the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. Although the Soviets won, I am sure they in no way forgave Japan for that sudden massive attack. But the Russians signed a neutrality pact after that as it needed to concentrate on the German invading them.

Soviet?Japanese border conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And even though a Neutrality Pact was signed in 41, the Japanese not only planned to break it, they actually mobilized troops to attack Russia again. Only fate stepped in, and practically at the last minute, the Japanese decided it had better put those troops elsewhere. Regardless, such a mobilization is a deal breaker, and I am sure the Soviets were aware. Often people accuse the Soviets of breaking the deal first. That is a lie. The Japanese did even if they called off the attack.

Then you can see how the Soviets sent Japanese POWs to Gulags and were just generally brutal during the invasion of Manchuria, raping and pillaging. After taking the Kuriles, all Japanese were expelled by 1946.

I seriously doubt the Soviets would have been gentle in Japan.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Thank you Pauro12 for reposting my information so that the blind can see.

I did make a mistake though. It was at Yalta that the Soviets agreed to enter the war against Japan, not Potsdam.

But I may as well point out how hell bent detractors of the Soviets rarely fail to try and paint it as the Soviets just making an opportunistic maneuver and trying to steal the fruits of American hard fought gains against Japan. America asked them to be there, and the Soviets came, right on schedule. For this, they get nothing but grief from Cold War propagandists who like to toss about words like "revisionist" off the cuff. The truth is a dangerous thing in the eyes of some people. Infuriating even.

 

[pauro12]

I don't know what's there reason but those **** truly happened, it may not be the **** that I've understand from the documentary, but it surely is a **** for they still dropped the bomb.. Well, if it didn't happened, there should have been about thousands of cute japanese ladies lurking in Japan right now in addition to what it has as of this moment.. disregarding this joke, I still pity everyone who died during that war, especially those that are innocent. Only means war makes no sense at all...

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

P.S Mark of Zorro would want to point something about this Thread, but yet you blocked him he says.. Either way, I guess you need to know somehow,,,

Why would I need to know that he accuses me (as if it's a crime, anyway) of having Alzheimer's? I don't come here to trade insults, even if the board administrators do seem to be getting lax on allowing it.

Unblock him, no thanks. And I see no reason to talk to someone who reproduces his words, either.

P.S. - I haven't blocked you yet, pauro12, but if you continue being the message-carrier for Zorro's insults, I will. This is your only warning.