Verb stem Noun list

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Verb stem Noun list

Hi Guys,
Just a quick one. Recently I have been coming in contact with verb stem nouns.( not sure if there is a technical name for them)
Such as 取り, taking/picking and 歩き walking etc. I know that not every verb does this e.g 食べ is incorrect and should be 食べることが , 食べるのetc...

I was wondering if there was a definitive list? In the dictionary I use, when I search 歩く it doesn't have a listing that says the stem can be used as a noun.
Is it a case of learning by trial and error?
 
As far as I can tell it is trial and error. No real pattern just use what makes sense. Most verbs can be made into a noun by following this rule but you are right I never heard of 食べ but 喰い is used.

Also type 2(?) 一段 verbs can also have this function like 賭け so that's not really a distinguishing feature either.

Even adjectives can be used this way like 朝早く、近く etc but restricted to space and time adjectives. 近くの店 for example.

The correct Japanese grammar term for this is 連用形. 2nd conjugation of Japanese verbs adjectives and 形容動詞. The mapping is a bit messy in 口語 Japanese though.
 
Thank you Morphlingsan,
Looks like it's up to brain to listen and learn. But thanks for the terms 形容動詞 and 連用形. Now I have something which to search.
 
Thank you Morphlingsan,
Looks like it's up to brain to listen and learn. But thanks for the terms 形容動詞 and 連用形. Now I have something which to search.

Just for some extra info. 形容動詞 is na adjectives.

連用形 is a combination of te form and masu verb stem which is why it's never taught in Japanese for foreigners as it is confusing.

However, the masu stem is the proper 連用形, the te form is a bastardized version only exists in 口語 Japanese. Back in the old days, 書く's 連用形 is 書き, that's it. Alas things changes and now we have the te form as well.
 
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jepuvy3y-1.webp


Best to keep your mouth shut I think.



First: you see the big azz triangle next to 喰う? It means that way of writing is non-standard or not generally used.

Second: the word in question is the noun くい not the verb くう, くい is always written in 食い, you won't be able to find 喰い in dictionaries.

from 研究社

くい2【食い】 ローマ(kui)
【釣り】 a bite (by [from] a fish).
▲食いがいい[悪い] get a ┌good [bad] bite 《by [from] a fish on some bait》
・今日は食いがいい. The fish are ┌biting [taking] well today.
・午後になると食いが立ち始めた. In the afternoon the fish started biting.

from 大辞林

くい クヒ [2] 【食い】
(1)食うこと。「飼い葉の―が細る」「―放題」
(2)魚が餌(エサ)に食いつくこと。「―が止まる」「―がいい」

from 大辞泉

くい【食い】くひ
(1)食うこと。「いかもの―(ぐい)」(2)魚がえさに食いつくこと。また、その度合い。「―が悪い」「入れ―(ぐい)」

from 広辞苑

くい【食い】クヒ
魚が餌をくうこと。魚が釣針にかかること。「―がいい」

Best to learn how to use a dictionary and stop misleading people...
 
Geez why do you have to be so obnoxious. You don't know jack yet you hijack every thread with your nonsense.

連用形 can turn most verbs into nouns. Doesn't need a dictionary entry. 書き is a proper noun meaning writing but not in dictionary.

書きはできるけど、話しは無理 etc.

Also go look up 喰 in 漢字源, you will find くい as one of the readings. It's used as a title of a Japanese movie even. But I'm sure your Japanese is far superior to a native speaker so they *could* be wrong.

映画『共喰い』オフィシャルサイト

In any case I'm done with you. Have fun turning Vt into Vi using passive or have you finally given up on that thread?
 
Also go look up 喰 in 漢字源, you will find くい as one of the readings. In any case I'm done with you. Have fun turning Vt into Vi using passive or have you finally give up on that thread?

So? はなす also have an alternative form of 咄す, do you think it would be acceptable to write はなす using 咄す instead of the proper 話す.

People here asking question are generally beginners, you shouldn't mislead them with erroneous information. If OP wrote 喰い in real life, it would marked wrong or just plain weird. Just like writing 咄す.

A lot of verbs have can be written with different kanji, some change according to meaning, some are substitute and some are just unacceptable. Not everything listed in Kanji dictionary are acceptable, in fact most for references and not acceptable for general usage.

What does that thread have to do with this, or you just simply trying to commit an ad hominem?
 
映画『共喰い』オフィシャルサイト

You better email the publisher as they just stuffed up a movie title :rolleyes:

Using 食う or 喰う is a personal preference where as thinking Vi causative is Vt is utter stupidity. That is the difference.

So you think it's a personal preference and there is no social or linguistic convention in Japanese? So one can just use 紅い instead of 赤い because there is a song called 紅い花. If you think everything can is just a personal preference, and there is no tradition or convention then clearly Japanese culture and Japanese language is not for you.

And also, I am tired of explaining to you why causative are vt, clearly you not accepting the fact that all vt have direct object. Also I stop posting there because you think you're can discredit DJG series, I can't have a logical argument with someone who thinks they are better than the most trusted grammar dictionary.

Oh, by the way, why you avoid the fact that there is a big azz triangle next to 喰い? Can you explain to me what it means?
 
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Hi Guys,
Just a quick one. Recently I have been coming in contact with verb stem nouns.( not sure if there is a technical name for them)
Such as 取り, taking/picking and 歩き walking etc. I know that not every verb does this e.g 食べ is incorrect and should be 食べることが , 食べるのetc...

I was wondering if there was a definitive list? In the dictionary I use, when I search 歩く it doesn't have a listing that says the stem can be used as a noun.
Is it a case of learning by trial and error?
Almost all 連用形 can be used as a noun, or rather, the noun usage is considered the initial usage of 連用形.
動詞の連用形はそのままで名詞にもなる(「つなぎ」「賭け」「救い」など)。連用形としての機能もこの名詞化機能が元になっていると思われる。
連用形 - Wikipedia

As for 食べ, indeed it's rarely used because of the existence of 食い, as Morphling-san pointed out, but it's actualy used in some compound words that express baby's /child's behaviour of eating such like 手づかみ食べ, ちょい食べ or 遊び食べ. And here's another example on wikipedia; 三角食べ.
三角食べ - Wikipedia
(all in Japanese)


Oh, by the way, why you avoid the fact that there is a big azz triangle next to 喰い? Can you explain to me what it means?
三省堂「大辞林」凡例
▼ 常用漢字表にない漢字
三省堂 Web Dictionary

I.e., no matter how commonly used, ▼ is added just because it's 常用外.
叩くとは - Weblio辞書
濡らすとは - Weblio辞書
覗くとは - Weblio辞書

As for 喰い, it's the same in meaning as 食い and relatively commonly used as a non-jōyō kanji. See the following examples.

杖をハリーの手に乱暴に押しつけ、それから見物している死喰い人の輪に戻った。
ハリー・ポッターと炎のゴブレット 下巻 J.K.ローリング作 松岡佑子訳

張孔堂組と相討って、共喰いをさせんがためであった。
外道忍法帖 山田風太郎著

この二つが、やはり浅草らしい喰いものの双璧ではないかと思う。
私説東京繁昌記 小林信彦、荒木経惟著

ついに、立ち喰いソバをすすって東京に戻るという結果にあいなった。
こんな女と暮らしてみたい 高橋三千綱著

このうち熊癖と身喰いに関しては、これが競走能力にどれほどの影響を与えるか判然としないため、
軽種馬取引の法律問題 鍋谷博敏著

あの人達は、人喰い鬼なのに…よくまあ、私の息子を、きちんとしたひとに育ててくれたものだわ。
緑幻想 グリーン・レクイエム2 新井素子著

シャモンにとっては、喰い物だらけの場所である。
蒼獣鬼 異神篇 夢枕獏著

むしろ「金喰い虫」と呼ばれたり、一種のアレルギーのように毛嫌いされるケースもあった。
日本経済のドラマ 経済小説で読み解く1945-2000 堺憲一著

料亭へ仕事に来たのか飲み喰いをしに来たのかまったくわからない、
吉里吉里人 井上ひさし著

肉食は江戸時代にも薬喰いとして行われ、
時代ごとに調査しよう 縄文クッキー、おにぎり、カステラ 竹内由紀子監修

運動会のパン喰い競争に出ているような気持でした
老いの道づれ 二人で歩いた五十年 沢村貞子著

こんな喰いちがいはどこから出てきたのか
食べる屁理屈 村松友視著

And also, I am tired of explaining to you why causative are vt, clearly you not accepting the fact that all vt have direct object. Also I stop posting there because you think you're can discredit DJG series, I can't have a logical argument with someone who thinks they are better than the most trusted grammar dictionary.
同じことの繰り返しに辟易しそうなのでこの指摘で最後にしたいものですが、その教科書に載っていることだけが唯一の論拠ですか?その教科書だけに載っているかどうかの検証もなく?
 
Do you have statistics to back up that it is a relatively used non-joyo kanji?

Relatively means in comparison, your comparing with other non-joyo kanji? Why, the comparison should be made between 喰 and 食, and not 喰 and another non-relevant joyo kanji. Because the speaking only have two options kanjis to choose from when writing the word くい.

Kanji frequency is not of the 2500 most used kanji in newspaper, while 食 is ranked 328.

These data can't not be used as evidence to make an inferential conclusion. The sampling size is too small, your population is not defined, sampling frame is not determined, your sampling method is not disclosed (for all I know, you could have just googled the term 喰い, which is absolute biased sampling).
 
Your statement "it's 食い(くい), not 喰い" unnecessarily denies 喰い. 喰い is RELATIVELY commonly used even in daily life (oh sorry, you might not actually know daily life in Japan). The movie 共喰い is a good example of it, I gave you actual examples in literary works, and 6,490,000 google search results would also reinforce it, if you believe google search. 咄す is definitely less common. See the following results.

咄す 約 7,100 件
話す 約 16,500,000 件
(1 : 2320)

喰い 約 6,460,000 件
食い 約 13,400,000 件
(1 : 2.07)

Do you have any evidence that 喰い is not used? As you already know, ▼ in 大辞林 can't be an indicator. (You did misunderstand the meaning, though.)
 
I got half a million when I Googled 咄す, anyhow, the number is meaningless. I can get much higher ratio when I search 喰 and 食 instead of 喰い and 食い respectively, to a ratio of 1:64.

There are good reasons why search engine result test don't mean anything. To use them as evidence, you must first establish directi correlation between Kanji frequency and Google search engine number, then you must establish causation, because correlation do not imply causation, but causation imply correlation. Proving causation is difficult, I don't think you have the qualification nor the resources to do it.

If you are unable to establish causation or even correlation between Google search result number and Kanji frequency, you should not use Google search result as evidence. As Google number does not mean the frequency in actual Japanese written texts.

You best option is to directly find out Kanji frequency, that is finding out the primary data of Kanji frequency in all written Japanese, again I doubt you have the resources nor the skills to achieve this, neither do I. So your best option is to find out the secondary data(s). Which I have provided, Kanji frequency from Kodansha kanji dictonary ranks 食 as 328 most frequently used Kanji while 喰 is not even in the top 2500. Kodansha Kanji dictionary is obviously more reliable than your Google result ratio = frequency ratio logic.

You should learn to stop using "search engine test" as evidence, they have no academic or statistical weighting. They are acceptable evidence for internet tabloid or for internet trolls, but you won't find them in where academic standards are uphold, like in universities and to some extent in stackexchange. We both are long term numbers of JREF and we should lead by examples in our argument and references, that is our argument should be logical and we should have acceptable evidence to back them up.

Lastly, you should also to leave subjectivity and personal attacks in your argument, I am trying to post in an logical, objective and impartial manner, and you should do the same. Whether or not I live in Japan have nothing to do with the subject manner, and the same is true for you. This is why first person is not acceptable in academic report or college level essay, because personal experience is biased, hard to prove and will affect the impartial analysis of a report or an essay.

You think 喰い is relatively commonly used in daily life or not in your opinion, until you provide acceptable evidence that it is relatively commonly Kanji, I can not accept your opinion as a fact. And so far you have not provided indisputable evidence that 喰 or 喰い is relatively common.

Also I would like to provide my operational term of "relatively common",

"relative" means in comparison to 食 in Japanese written text, not just literary words or movie titles.

"common" means have a high ratio, 1:4 should be high enough for me. If you can prove to me that 1 in 5 食/喰 is 喰, then all accept your proposition.

FGA: Google result counts are a meaningless metric.
 
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May I ask what your evidence that 喰い is not used is, then? まさか「だってあの教科書にそう書いてあるんだもん!」じゃないですよね?
 
word frequency compiled by U of Leeds.

Lemma

http://corpus.leeds.ac.uk/frqc/internet-jp.num

食い 11394 3.45
喰い not in the top 15000 words.

no ratio can be drawn from the data but you can see that 喰い frequency is higher than 喰い

2382 29.28 食う
9167 4.77 喰う

frequency on Japanese forums

http://corpus.leeds.ac.uk/frqc/internet-jp-forms.num


5789 9.98 食い

8051 6.27 食う

19394 1.69 喰い

27966 0.91 喰う

Also 食い has a total of 16 results. 喰い only one.
18260 1.86 食い違い
19794 1.63 食い物
23417 1.23 飲み食い....

So it's about 6-7 times more frequent, if including 食い combination, the result is ratio would be much higher.
 
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Thanks for giving us another evidence that 喰い is actually used.

大丈夫。インターネットだけに頼るんじゃなくて、実際にこっちで使ってみればすぐにわかることだけど、「喰い」でもちゃんと通用しますから。「咄す」は使わないほうがいいですけどね。
 
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