Vegetarians......Yes or No

[bakaKanadajin]

Another strike against meat (although I sometimes eat it.. I guess this would be the reasons why I feel bad AFTER eating it) is the fact that aside from being unethical it's unsafe. The amount of chemicals and harmful compounds in today's modern meat is staggering. Since I stopped eating red meat and processed foods I've noticed a definite improvement in my energy levels and general well being.

 

[pugtm]

try kosher meat it a heck of alot better than regular meat since it has no preservatives or chemicals and is free range. try it you will taste the difference immediately.

 

[Skullcrushergurl]

I don't eat chicken and sometimes I cry when I'm eating a hamburger but I can't live without meat!!
I'd go insane thinking about the hot juicy,plump,steak I'd be missing out on (Not that I eat steak anyway)
Sometimes I feel bad for the animals but I have to ignore it to feed my need. Sorry.

 

[bebopdobop]

I used to be vegetarian, for a bout 19 years of my life. Then I got married, and started eating meat. I would have no problem going back, because I'm not much of a carnivore, it was just much more convenient for me to start eating and cooking meat. Also, I was anemic before when I was vegetarian. Used to faint alot. Not any more. Thank you, meat!

 

[Revenant]

The iron in meat is easier for the body to absorb, but I think that eating more nuts, seeds, and a variety of veggies would provide enought iron for most people. Cooking in cast iron would also increase the uptake of iron for vegetarians and vegans.

 

[Taiko666]

Why is it "dirty" work? I'm sorry but I dont particulary like some of the terminology that some people use against us "meat-eaters". I am not pointing fingers at anyone here, particularly not you Sarapva. I hope that maybe you could explain why some vegetarians use rather harsh and provoking language in an effort to make us carnivore's look like something less than human.

Hi- Obeika, great thread, wish I'd seen it earier!

I think you're being oversensitive about vegetarians' terminology. It's an immotive subject, so phrases such as 'dirty work' (in this case, raising animals in cruel, unnatural conditions, then killing them in an even more cruel, industrialised, terrifying way) are completely excusable.

I'd also say that a lot of lightweight/chit-chat non-veggie / veggie discussions (unlike this thead I must emphasize) seem to go like this:

Non-veggie: Hey, you're not eating the meat! Are you veggie or something?

Veggie: < Smiles, thinks Oh no, I thought nobody had noticed, here comes the veggie discussion > Yes!

Non-veggie: Omoshiroi / really? / weird! - Why?

Veggie: < insert reasoned, deeply-felt, non-confrontational personal explanation here >

Non-veggie: Well, I love meat, so don't try to stop me eating it!

Veggie: < sighs, smiles > More beer anyone?

Not that I'm against discussing the subject of course... !

 

[Taiko666]

try kosher meat it a heck of alot better than regular meat since it has no preservatives or chemicals and is free range. try it you will taste the difference immediately.

The kosher method of slaughter is so revolting that the UK parliament debating banning it at length. That they eventually didn't ban it was due to overly PC religious sensitivities. The fact that the hugely PC UK government actually discussed it seriously is very significant.

 

[Sarapva]

I might regret asking this, but what is the kosher method of slaughter and how is it different from "regular" slaughter? The UK really is ahead of the U.S. in banning cruel farming methods.

Before I became a vegetarian, I had some moose meat in Alaska that really did taste a lot better than most of the meat you buy in stores, like Pugtm mentioned.

 

[Taiko666]

I might regret asking this, but what is the kosher method of slaughter and how is it different from "regular" slaughter? The UK really is ahead of the U.S. in banning cruel farming methods.

The animal is strung upside down and its throat is cut with a ritual knife. The blood then drains from the animal. For some reason, kosher law normally dictates that the animal be conscious when the cut is made, so the animal is not stunned before slaughter. Islamic Halal slaughter is very much the same.

Here's what a Jewish Vegetarian site has to say about it

http://www.jewishveg.com/media11.html

I think you're right about the UK's farm animal welfare laws. They do seem to be stricter than most- probaby as a consequence of the UK having a higher percentage of vegetarians than any country except India.

 

[Sarapva]

Thanks for that link and information, Taiko666. I had heard something about the PETA investigation at AgriProcessors a while ago. But that article is informative - I didn't know all that about Jewish laws requiring slaughter to be painless. It gives me a new respect for the Jewish religion.

From what I've heard about other slaughter plants, the slaughter method is similar to the kosher method except for the stunning - but then there's an argument that even though stunning an animal paralyzes it, it doesn't necessarily mean the animal is unconscious and can't feel pain (similar to the news stories recently about people who wake up during surgery - they can't move, but can feel the pain of their surgery and hear what the doctors are saying - truly a nightmare-ish experience).

 

[Taiko666]

Hi Sarapva-san! Jewish law might require that the animal suffers no pain, but then it requires that the animal be killed in the kosher way- the assumption being that this method is painless. It's quite clearly not painless, even if it's performed expertly.

And you're absolutely right about stunning not being foolproof. Of couse the animal feels pain, and lots of it. And as it's being led to the slaughter it can see, hear and smell its companions suffering disgusting deaths. All this in addition to the unbelivable cruel conditions that it probably had to endure during its brief pitiful existence (especially if it was an American pig.)

The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

 

[Sarapva]

The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

Yes, that's exactly my philosophy! I've found that I prefer things like soy milk to regular milk, and soy ice cream to regular dairy ice cream.

Thanks for that link about pig farming - that really shows the difference between a "family" farm (what most of us probably think of when we think of farms, the animals being outside with plenty of room) and factory farming. Keeping animals in cages their whole lives is a crime in itself.

I know there are still people in the world who don't believe animals have feelings, much less intelligence. But what we're learning now is that they're very much like us in both ways. If a factory farmer could somehow suddenly "see" exactly what a pig or cow or chicken or any other animal in the farm feels during its life, I think he'd be horrified.

I forgot to mention that I didn't know the UK had a higher percentage of vegetarians than any other country besides India. That is really something! Big cheers for the UK!!!

 

[made of stone]

I forgot to mention that I didn't know the UK had a higher percentage of vegetarians than any other country besides India. That is really something! Big cheers for the UK!!!

Sarapva san, I'm not sure where those figures come from, and it's true that the UK has much higher (and regulated, some would suggest!) rules about animal welfare than much of Europe - (our pigs must roam almost free-range, for one example, while those in Eastern Europe,especially, are bred and live in dank 'shelters' where their babies suffocate in the pools of mud and faeces, and forgive me if I don't go on...) - but leaving that aside, many 'vegetarians' here are quite happy to eat eggs, drink milk, wear animal products and by-products - and so I don't think the comparison of that survey stands.

The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

Taiko san, a very many thanks for your comments Could you please throw some light on where you generally get your nutritious and environmentally-sound foodstuffs from? That conundrum is one of the things that's stopping me from returning to live in Japan. Cheers!!

mos

 

[包龙星]

If we want to stay health. It is not important to be a vegetarian~ Balanced diet is the best choice~

 

[Revenant]

I've read that vegetarians and flexitarians (those that just eat meat once or twice a week) supposedly have the healthiest diet. A balanced diet might include a small low-fat serving of dairy, and an ounce of fish or meat a day if the above is true. At least in the North American diet, most people eat far more than that.

 

[Sarapva]

Sarapva san, I'm not sure where those figures come from, and it's true that the UK has much higher (and regulated, some would suggest!) rules about animal welfare than much of Europe - (our pigs must roam almost free-range, for one example, while those in Eastern Europe,especially, are bred and live in dank 'shelters' .... many 'vegetarians' here are quite happy to eat eggs, drink milk, wear animal products and by-products - and so I don't think the comparison of that survey stands. mos

I'd be interested in where the survey did come from - Taiko666, do you have a link to it (showing that the UK has more vegetarians except for India)? But just the fact that the UK has better welfare laws for animals puts it on a higher level of morality in my view. For example, the UK has made the production of foie gras (force-feeding ducks and geese) illegal, whereas the U.S. still has legal foie gras farms. I think only a couple of states in the U.S. have banned the small gestation crates for pigs and veal crates for calves. We're getting there slowly, I think.

As for not being completely vegan and eating eggs or milk, if it comes from organic farms the animals are much more likely to be treated humanely (as part of the regulations for being organic). If the UK has laws to protect its pigs, the dairy farms are probably okay, too.

Revenant - That's the first time I've seen the term "flexitarians"! I wonder if it's in any dictionaries?!

 

[urd]

I'm no vegetarian.
I eat meat only from time to time simply because I don't like it that much.
Anyway I think everyone should respect the others decision concering eating meat or not.

 

[Revenant]

Anyway I think everyone should respect the others decision concering eating meat or not.

I'd argue that if we keep the well-being of the generations that follow us in mind, we ought to give thought to the farming techniques that we employ to meet our current consumption, and whether we actually need to produce and consume as we do.

 

[Taiko666]

I'd be interested in where the survey did come from - Taiko666, do you have a link to it (showing that the UK has more vegetarians except for India)?

Ok I have to admit that that was 'something I read' in a magazine a few years ago, but it's partially backed up by these statistics which I've had to scour the net for:

European stats

Australian stats

New Zealand stats

North American stats

However they only include a handful of western nations. But with those stats, and some consideration of which other countries are likely to have high vegetarian populations (I can't think of any...) I'd bet a sizeable sum that the UK veggie percentage is the world's 2nd highest.

 

[Sarapva]

Thanks for researching that, Taiko666 - it looks like you're right about the UK having one of the highest percentages of vegetarians, but then in the polls it depends on the definition of the words and whether dairy products are included, etc. In one of the U.S. polls it showed that 7% of adults never eat meat, but just 1% were completely vegan. Nevertheless, the trend of vegetarianism is rising, which I'm very glad about!

 

[Taiko666]

Could you please throw some light on where you generally get your nutritious and environmentally-sound foodstuffs from? That conundrum is one of the things that's stopping me from returning to live in Japan. Cheers!!
mos

Hi made of stone! Sorry I missed your question. As you know being veggie in Japan is difficult... so I've tackled in a number of ways:

1) I've got in to cooking in a big way! Especially after buying a good food blender (can rustle up a bean-burger in 10 mins now, and a bowl of hummus in 1 min) Another breakthrough was learning to make pastry, so things like 'chicken' and mushroom pie are back on my menu...(made with a Quorn-like chicken sub.)

2) When I eat out it's mostly at non-Japanese places (Indian, Italian, British pub etc.) If I'm in a group at an izakawa I just scour the menu for safe options, which usually turn out to be chips (fries), tofu, cheesey fried things and salads- holding the prawns, octopus, squid, bacon etc. Not that exciting, but the sake/shouchou makes up for it. If I'm at an okonomiyaki place I just ask for non-meat ingredients, and even at a yakiniku place you can make yourself a veggie kebab. Of course, Subway is god-send...

3) I've found some organic/macrobiotic places that sell veggie food. The 'Natural House' supermarket chain has tons of veggie stuff... burgers, huge variety of meat subs (including an amazing 'ham'), and lots of great ingredients. They even have simple, obvious veggie sandwiches (eg feta cheese-olive-sundried tomato) which for some reason seem to be completely absent in Japan.
Plus there's a specialist macrobiotic place near my flat that has a huge range of veggie stuff, including a large part of the American 'Amy's Kitchen' range.

4) I've allowed myself two vices in Japan. I'd been eating soba/udon for 6 months before I realised dashi usually has small amount of fish stock in it- but I haven't stopped eating it. And when eating out, I know the only places where you're guaranteed *not* to get chicken stock in 'veggie' items are at Indian and British places (Italian places are usually safe, but even Mexican places put it in the tortillas.) But if I'm in a group I've adopted a 'don't ask' policy. Japan seems to have a fetish for chicken stock... it's in just about every veggie-looking pre-prepared meal in a Japanese supermarket.

 

[Mitsuo]

I am not a vegetarian or vegan, but I do have a high degree of respect for those who choose to live that lifestyle. Actually, at one point in time, I did consider trying vegetarianism, but that was a long time ago and I was too lazy to change. But not too long ago I had a really hard time eating meat because of my anatomy lab, where I dealt with dissected human cadavers. The image and smell stayed with me for a while and ruined much of the foods that I enjoy to eat. I got over it.

 

[Mars Man]

But not too long ago I had a really hard time eating meat because of my anatomy lab, where I dealt with dissected human cadavers. The image and smell stayed with me for a while and ruined much of the foods that I enjoy to eat. I got over it.

I am glad that you got over it. This did bring to mind one fact, actually, that can be taken in at least two ways, namely, meat is meat, afterall.

When I lived with those from Gujarat, India (notice 'from') I didn't eat meat much at all--of course. The variety of tastes and the spicyness were enough to keep it from getting boring.

Although I am not won over yet by the 'moral' argument, I do tend to think that a non-meat diet would be good for giving greater 'value of presence' to other animal forms as well as ourselves. This is, I will aquiesce though, due to having a larger brain than other carnivorous animals. At the moment, I do eat meat, but less red meat than when living in the USA.

 

[Sarapva]

Although I am not won over yet ...

This means there is still hope!

 

[Mars Man]

Yes, that would be what it would mean, by logical inference. Let's see what happens.