Question Usage of different past tense forms of the verb 忘れる？

milindindia · 2 Mar 2020

What are the nuances and differences in the usage of,
忘れた。
忘れていた。
忘れてた。
忘れてあった（もの）。
忘れました。
忘れてしまった。
忘れちゃった。
忘れてしまっていた。
忘れちゃっていた。
忘れてしまってた。
忘れちゃってた。
？
Plus, can I say, 忘れてしまいました、忘れちゃいました？

I would appreciate it if you told the scenario and reason on which one being used instead of the other than just the English translation.

Toritoribe · 2 Mar 2020

Have you already learned ～ている form of verbs?

milindindia · 3 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
Have you already learned ～ている form of verbs?

Yes I have, it is the progressive form. But I tend to not understand it's uses when it is not exactly talking about an ongoing process, but sometimes situation.

Also some verbs don't use 〜てある form, which is used to describe an already occured condition or situation. I might start another thread discussing that part.

For example:
What does オマエはもう死んでいる。 mean, "You're already dead." or "You are already dying."?
But, 死んである can't be used right?

SomeCallMeChris · 3 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
What does オマエはもう死んでいる。 mean, "You're already dead." or "You are already dying."?
But, 死んである can't be used right?

It means "You're already dead."

Some verbs express a change in state - 開く、閉まる、けっこんする、死ぬ.

With the 'stative' verbs, ～ている indicates they have gotten into that state and still are in that state.

あの二人はけっこんしている。⇒ That couple is married.

Verbs that express an action are of course interpreted differently, かれははしている⇒He is running.

～てある means something similar but slightly different: that someone did something, and left it that way.

つくえの上にてがみがおいてある ⇒ The letter was left on the desk.
つくえの上にてがみがおいている ⇒ The letter is on the desk.

We can say both with おく because we can say, e.g.,
私がてがみをつくえのうえにおいた。
However, even as a famous anime character we can't say
✖「私がおまえを死んだ。」

If you wanted to use the ～てある meaning here, you would need a different verb, like ころす or あやめる.

milindindia said:
忘れてしまった。
忘れちゃった。
忘れてしまっていた。
忘れちゃっていた。
忘れてしまってた。
忘れちゃってた。
？
Plus, can I say, 忘れてしまいました、忘れちゃいました？

These are all variations on 忘れる（てform)＋しまう.

～てしまう adds a sense of doing something in a way that can't be undone. In the case of 忘れる that means that something was forgotten until it was to late to avoid at least some of the consequences. Or, more simply, that forgetting was a mistake.

忘れる＋しまう
plain → 忘れてしまった
contraction → 忘れちゃった
polite → 忘れてしまいました

And then, ～ている can be contracted to ～てる、as in 忘れちゃってた.

milindindia · 3 Mar 2020

SomeCallMeChris said:
It means "You're already dead."

Some verbs express a change in state - 開く、閉まる、けっこんする、死ぬ.

With the 'stative' verbs, ～ている indicates they have gotten into that state and still are in that state.

あの二人はけっこんしている。⇒ That couple is married.

So how would I translate it if I wanted to say, "He is dying bit by bit everyday", "They are getting married" in the sense "being the process of dying" etc.?

SomeCallMeChris said:
These are all variations on 忘れる（てform)＋しまう.

～てしまう adds a sense of doing something in a way that can't be undone. In the case of 忘れる that means that something was forgotten until it was to late to avoid at least some of the consequences. Or, more simply, that forgetting was a mistake.

忘れる＋しまう
plain → 忘れてしまった
contraction → 忘れちゃった
polite → 忘れてしまいました

And then, ～ている can be contracted to ～てる、as in 忘れちゃってた.

I am actually talking about the nuances in meaning and usage here.
Like in which situation or context and what kind of person (man, woman, child, of a certain status etc.) would be using which one of these?
忘れた。
忘れていた。
忘れてた。
忘れてあった（もの）。
忘れました。
忘れてしまった。
忘れちゃった。
忘れてしまっていた。
忘れちゃっていた。
忘れてしまってた。
忘れちゃってた。
忘れてしまいました。
忘れちゃいました。

I still can't make out when am I supposed to say, 忘れた and 忘れていた, 忘れてしまった and 忘れてしまっていた, in terms of context.

I understand that 〜てしまう is talking about doing something unintentionally or something you regret about doing, but what will be the contextual meaning or usage in the present or future tense then? I mean, the kind of scenario I shall be using it in the non-past tense.
Say, 寝てしまう、寝てしまいます and 寝てしまっている、寝てしまっています.

Also, I was just wondering, but can we have a usage of conditional with this form?
〜てしまえば、 say, 忘れてしまえば？

SomeCallMeChris · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
Like in which situation or context and what kind of person (man, woman, child, of a certain status etc.) would be using which one of these?

I mean, anybody can use any form of them really. It depends on what you want to say, how you normally talk, and who you're with.
The same rules as always apply for using plain form vs. using polite form. Using contractions is a little bit rougher/more casual
even than using plain form.

Which you use of e.g., 忘れてしまいました・忘れてしまった・忘れちゃった is just a politeness level decision.

milindindia said:
I still can't make out when am I supposed to say, 忘れた and 忘れていた, 忘れてしまった and 忘れてしまっていた, in terms of context.

This difference on the other hand is one of meaning.

忘れた⇒"I forgot (it)", like えんぴつを忘れた when you realize you don't have your pencil with you, but you can still go get it or easily borrow one.
忘れってしまった⇒"I forgot (completely, and/or that's a problem)"、like しゅくだいを忘れてしまった when you realize you forgot your homework and the teacher is about to collect it.
忘れていた⇒"I had forgotten (for the entire duration)", "聞くのを忘れていた" when during a conversation (that is already over) you forgot to ask something.
忘れていた⇒"I had forgotten (completely about it for the entire duration)" like きけんをちゅういするのを忘れてしまっていた.

milindindia said:
Say, 寝てしまう、寝てしまいます and 寝てしまっている、寝てしまっています.

I mean, しまう still means the same thing. For 寝る in particular I think you would only use 寝てしまう・寝てしまいます (same thing, except for politeness).
e.g., かれはじゅぎょう中よく寝てしまう ⇒ He often falls asleep in class.

milindindia said:
Also, I was just wondering, but can we have a usage of conditional with this form?
〜てしまえば、 say, 忘れてしまえば？

yes, of course. じゅぎょう中寝てしまえばおこられる ⇒ (subj.) will be scolded if (they) fall asleep in class.

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
So how would I translate it if I wanted to say, "He is dying bit by bit everyday", "They are getting married" in the sense "being the process of dying" etc.?

Other expressions are used, for instance 死にかけている, 死にそうだ, 死につつある, 死ぬところだ, and so on.

SomeCallMeChris · 4 Mar 2020

Oh, yes. I forgot to mention that. それを答えるのを忘れってちゃった。ごめん。

Also,

milindindia said:
忘れてあった（もの）。

Maybe Toritoribe-san would be kind enough to confirm, but I don't believe you can use any form of 忘れてある, because the ～てある form suggests that ～ was someone's volitional act. I don't think 忘れる can normally be a volitional act.

milindindia · 4 Mar 2020

Oh my God, thank you so much. I wasn't expecting such an elaborate explanation.

SomeCallMeChris said:
I mean, anybody can use any form of them really. It depends on what you want to say, how you normally talk, and who you're with.
The same rules as always apply for using plain form vs. using polite form. Using contractions is a little bit rougher/more casual
even than using plain form.

Which you use of e.g., 忘れてしまいました・忘れてしまった・忘れちゃった is just a politeness level decision.

I have heard, using 〜ちゃう makes you sound childish or feminine. Is that true? And if contractions give you a casual tone do 〜ちゃいます、〜ちゃいました even sound natural?

SomeCallMeChris said:
I mean, しまう still means the same thing. For 寝る in particular I think you would only use 寝てしまう・寝てしまいます (same thing, except for politeness).
e.g., かれはじゅぎょう中よく寝てしまう ⇒ He often falls asleep in class.

yes, of course. じゅぎょう中寝てしまえばおこられる ⇒ (subj.) will be scolded if (they) fall asleep in class.

「じゅぎょう中に寝てしまう／寝てしまえば」 will be more natural, won't it?

Also if somebody says,
・守衛が寝てしまった。- The gaurd happened to fall asleep (which he shouldn't).
・守衛が寝てしまってた。 - The guard had fallen asleep in the past for an entire duration. (But is awake now or not, I do not know. - I somehow get this nuance here)
・守衛が寝てしまう。- The guard unintentionally falls asleep, or will happen to fall asleep, even if won't want to.
・守衛が寝てしまってる。- He fell asleep (which he shouldn't) and is still sleeping.

I hope I understand it right.

Toritoribe said:
Other expressions are used, for instance 死にかけている, 死にそうだ, 死につつある, 死ぬところだ, and so on.

I see, thank you.
I found a translation of,
・He is dying bit by bit everyday, but she doesn't care.
⇒彼は毎日少しずつ死に近付いていますが、彼女は心配していません。

This is a bit out of context, but are there any nuances in using 死にかけている, 死にそうだ, 死につつある, 死ぬところだ, 死に近付いている differently?

SomeCallMeChris said:
Oh, yes. I forgot to mention that. それを答えるのを忘れってちゃった。ごめん。

Also,

Maybe Toritoribe-san would be kind enough to confirm, but I don't believe you can use any form of 忘れてある, because the ～てある form suggests that ～ was someone's volitional act. I don't think 忘れる can normally be a volitional act.

There's this app called HelloTalk and somebody told me something different there. I will try to share it.

The conversation went like this:

Me: こんばんは！
Can you see this link,

Other uses of the te-form – Learn Japanese
here it talks about two different forms of Japanese verbs: 〜ている、 and 〜てある.
It has explained how the usage and meanings are different.

〜ている refers to process taking place at that moment or a process in progression. Therefore, 壊れている is supposed to have a nuance, that the window is in the process of breaking, isn't it? Similarly, 直っている is supposed to mean the mirror is in the process of getting fixed.

But if you read the link, it says 〜てある is used when something has already happened. For example, 置いてある、掃除してある、食べてある、壊してある etc.

I wanted to know how this works for intransitive verbs, so I was told the above sentences.

Can you give some more natural sentences with 壊れてある and 直ってある using 〜てある rule and explanation given in the link?

Her:
Now, I read the site and considerd about using 「～てある」 and 「～ている」.

As you already know, there are 2 kinds of verbs in Japanese language, intransitive and transitive verbs.

Examples of intransitive verbs ;
・「壊れる」
・「直る」

Examples of transitive verbs;
・「壊す」
・「直す」

It is the character of transitive verbs that "を" can be placede in front of the verbs.

〇「～を壊す」
〇「～を直す」

×「～を壊れる」
×「～を直る」

About the basecally rurle of using 「～てある」, it can be placed before only transitive verbs.
Then I'd like you to remind 「窓が既に壊してある」is the sentence the hero, or a subject "someone" is omitted.

（ "someone" が）
・「壊す」→「壊した」(got acted)→「壊してある」(Enduring state of action by someone)

・「直す」→「直した」(got acted)→「直してある」(Enduring state of action by someone)

As a general rule,「～てある」can't be plased before intransitive verbs.
So these sentences blow aren't correct.

×「壊れてある」
×「直ってある」

But there are some exceptions.
For example;
・「着る」
・「被る」

These examples are transitive verbs.
"を" can be placede in front of these verbs.

For example;
〇「服を着る」
〇「帽子を被る」

However these sentences blow are unusual.
×「服を着てある」
×「帽子を被ってある」

In regarding of verbs related clothing/dressing (apparel,footwear and accessories) we can use only 「〜ている」.
The reason why ,the attention of the hero,or a subject who wear them is overwhelmingly higher than the state of such as substances .
Probably because these verbs indicate the changes in the state of the hero wearing the clothing/dressing.

I wonder what other verbs, other than 着る and 被る, do not allow this construction.
I wonder if 忘れてある won't work, because it is just another transitive verb.

If I say, かぎが机の上に忘れてあった。, won't it convey "The key is left or lying on the table forgotten (by mistake) by someone."?

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

SomeCallMeChris said:
I don't believe you can use any form of 忘れてある, because the ～てある form suggests that ～ was someone's volitional act. I don't think 忘れる can normally be a volitional act.

That's right. ～てある form is mostly used for volitional transitive verbs. It can be used for intransitive verbs, but it must be volitional action, anyway.
e.g.
このマラソンコースは事前に走ってあるから、勝負には自信がある。
(走っておいたから would be more common for this case, though.)

milindindia said:
This is a bit out of context, but are there any nuances in using 死にかけている, 死にそうだ, 死につつある, 死ぬところだ, 死に近付いている differently?

Yes, the nuances/meanings/situations where they are used are different from each other.

milindindia · 4 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
That's right. ～てある form is mostly used for volitional transitive verbs. It can be used for intransitive verbs, but it must be volitional action, anyway.
e.g.
このマラソンコースは事前に走ってあるから、勝負には自信がある。
(走っておいたから would be more common for this case, though.)

Yes, the nuances/meanings/situations where they are used are different from each other.

Therefore, かぎが机の上に忘れてあった。is incorrect. But this sentence was told to me by a native.
I am confused, now.

Toritoribe san, can you tell when exactly should I use 〜てある and when I shouldn't? What do you think about the explanation I received on that app? And if it's all about volition, then can we use 直ってある、壊れてある etc.? And is 着てある usable as well? I'd appreciate it, if you gave examples.

SomeCallMeChris · 4 Mar 2020

Thank you, Toritoribe-san! 勉強になりました。

I think that the things that "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar", milindindia-san's HelloTalk friend, TaeKim, and Toritoribe-san are saying are all consistent with each other, with the exception of HelloTalk-san's focus on 'transitive' instead of 'volitional'. Those two ideas overlap a good deal of the time so it's understandable, but I think that was a mistake.

milindindia said:
I have heard, using 〜ちゃう makes you sound childish or feminine. Is that true? And if contractions give you a casual tone does 〜ちゃいます、〜ちゃいました even sound natural?

I don't think ～ちゃう is particularly childish or feminine, but native speakers might have a different opinion. I hear a lot of ～ちゃった from men. Maybe the comment you remember refers to some specific usage of the non-past ちゃう in particular.

Mmm... the ます form is not used strictly for very formal discussions. You can have a very casual and friendly conversation with someone while still being only "friendly acquaintances" rather than close friends. I think using contractions with ます shows that you're relaxed and comfortable with the person you're talking to (or mabye just a sloppy speaker) while still showing respect.

milindindia said:
「じゅぎょう中に寝てしまう／寝てしまえば」 will be more natural, won't it?

I don't think so... but the Weblio 例文 set does have examples of falling asleep in class both with and without に.

「授業中」に関連した英語例文の一覧と使い方 - Weblio英語例文検索

「授業中」に関連した英語例文の一覧と使い方

ejje.weblio.jp

milindindia said:
・守衛が寝てしまってた。 - The guard had fallen asleep in the past for an entire duration. (But is awake now or not, I do not know. - I somehow get this nuance here)

I hope I understand it right.

You seem to understand, yes.
For 「守衛が寝てしまってた」, the guard had fallen asleep and slept through something -- an incident he should have reacted to, his whole shift maybe, his superior coming in and finding him asleep, or any number of other things; we only know there was a duration, not which duration.

The sentence doesn't really say anything about where they are now, the sentence is in the past so we expect the guard stop sleeping at some point. (In the case of a sleeping guard they may not ever wake up... but they won't still be asleep either in that case.)

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
Therefore, かぎが机の上に忘れてあった。is incorrect. But this sentence was told to me by a native.

There are only three examples of 忘れてある in a corpus

そしてあるとき、電話機のそばに、おじさんの小さなアドレス帳が置き忘れてあった」ねえちゃんの黒目が、ぬめっという感じに光った。
急拵えしたおかしな恰好の部屋は、荷物が消え去っていて、隅の方にハンカチーフが一枚忘れてあった。
見ると、玲子のワンピースの背中のボタンの上から２つめと３つめが留め忘れてあって、

In all these examples including かぎが机の上に忘れてあった。, the things left behind are all concrete objects. In this case, it can be considered that 忘れてある more likely expresses 忘れて、ある "something was left and is still there". In fact, 忘れてある can't mean "forgot a memory previously, and don't remember it now".

milindindia said:
can you tell when exactly should I use 〜てある and when I shouldn't? What do you think about the explanation I received on that app? And if it's all about volition, then can we use 直ってある、壊れてある etc.? And is 着てある usable as well? I'd appreciate it, if you gave examples.

The key is not "transitive vs. intransitive" but "volitional vs. non-volitional", as Chris-san and I already wrote. Although people often confuse these two different concepts, it's just transitive verbs are mostly volitional and intransitive counterparts are mostly non-volitional for transitive-intransitive verb pairs.

～てしまう means "to happen to do/to do accidentally". This is a non-volitional action, so this auxiliary verb changes a volitional verb into a non-volitional verb. 壊してしまう and 直してしまう are both transitive verbs, but 壊してしまってある and 直してしまってある are invalid since these verbs are non-volitional. Similarly, the reason why 壊れてある and 直ってある are invalid is because these verbs are non-volitional, not because they are intransitive.

As for 着てある, it can be used "to wear previously", e.g., あの衣装は以前に着てあるから、着方はもうわかっている。, but other expressions like 着たことがある, 着ておいてある are more commonly used also in this case.

milindindia · 5 Mar 2020

Thank you so much Chris-san and Toritoribe-san for the lucid and elaborate explanation.

Toritoribe said:
As for 着てある, it can be used "to wear previously", e.g., あの衣装は以前に着てあるから、着方はもうわかっている。, but other expressions like 着たことがある, 着ておいてある are more commonly used also in this case.

Btw, what do you think of this sentence?
サリーを着てある女性がここに座ってた。彼女を見た事はあるの？
Can 着てある be used like this?

Toritoribe · 5 Mar 2020

ある is an attributive, not an auxiliary verb there.

サリーを着て、ある女性がここに座ってた。
Wearing a sari, a (certain) woman was sitting here.

ある【×或る】
a certain; one; some（▼oneは不定の時に関して，someは未知の人や物に関して，a certainは知ってはいるがはっきり言いたくないときに用いる）
ある所に
at [in] a certain place

ある教授がそう言った
A certain professor said so.

ある日
one day

ある時
once

ある場合には
in some cases

私はそう思うが，ある者はそう思わない
I think so, but some people don't.

ある程度目的を達した
They achieved their purpose 「to some degree [to a certain extent].

ある意味ではそれは正しい
That is correct in a (certain) sense.

goo

NTTドコモが運営するポータルサイト「goo」。今話題のニュースやドコモのキャンペーン、サービス紹介などお役立ちコンテンツを展開しています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

Where did you see it, by the way? Seems like it's made by a non-native Japanese speaker. (I mean, サリーを着てある女性がここに座ってた。彼女を見た事はあるの？ sounds awkward.)

milindindia · 5 Mar 2020

Thank you so much. I have seen this ある form used in ある人 before.

Toritoribe said:
Where did you see it, by the way? Seems like it's made by a non-native Japanese speaker. (I mean, サリーを着てある女性がここに座ってた。彼女を見た事はあるの？ sounds awkward.)

I made it and wanted you to check whether it was correct, seems like it got messed up.
I wanted to say "There was a woman in a Sari (having worn a Sari/ wearing a Sari) sitting here. Have you seen her?" using 着てある but it didn't quite work.

Toritoribe · 5 Mar 2020

着ている is used for "to be wearing now". ～てある is different from ～ている, as Chiris-san wrote. 着てある means "wore it previously for a purpose", for instance, すぐに泳げるように、服の下に水着を着てある.

Question Usage of different past tense forms of the verb 忘れる？

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「授業中」に関連した英語例文の一覧と使い方 - Weblio英語例文検索

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