Trying to Make Sense Out Of Adjective/Verb Conjugations

[ShadowSpirit]

Glenn-senpai. It would seem that you are also bewildered about that sentence. Which I do appreciate you going out on a limb to make sense of it. Yet knowing that it doesn't seem too natural at first glance to you as well helps affirm to me that perhaps more familiar uses of those verbs (to us that is) could be used in place.

I think Glenn-senpai (先罵) might be more appropriate. I don't think I've quite made it to 先生 level yet.

If you feel more comfortable with Glenn-senpai, then that is fine. Though usually a senpai isn't so much more advanced than their associate as you are to me. Thus I felt you have escalated to sensei status.

 

[Glenn]

Perhaps you're right about that. It just feels kind of weird to me, especially on the heels of me just guessing about an answer.

On a separate note, I wonder why 輩 changed to 罵 when you quoted me. That's quite a difference in meaning there, not to mention that it just shouldn't have happened. Strange...

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Glenn: I hadn't noticed that until you brought it up. I have no idea why that happened. I didn't make any changes to the code at all.

 

[Toritoribe]

In addition to Glenn-san's explanation regarding the difference between two types of verbs, ta-form of action verbs expresses past tense, whereas ta-form of change-of-state verbs expresses being in a state of completion. Or, the latter case, change-of-state verb, is more likely close to present perfect tense.

飲む; action verb
牛乳を飲んでいる。[Gyuunyuu o nondeiru.] → 牛乳を飲んだ。[Gyuunyuu o nonda.]
I am drinking milk. → I drank milk.

死ぬ; change-of-state verb
鳥が死んだ。[Tori ga shinda.] → 鳥が死んでいる。[Tori ga shindeiru.]
The bird has died. → The bird is dead.

*死んだ can be used as past tense depending on the context.
e.g.
昨日鳥が死んだ。
The bird died yesterday.

As for the verb 着る, 着ている can be used as both present progressive and present tense.

What I don't understand is, why didn't they say shiroi shatsu o kite ite aoi jiinzu o haite imasu? I mean, in the picture she is already wearing a white shirt. So why use kite instead of kite ite?

I'm not sure but "～していて、…" seems not to be able to be used as a simple paratactic use.

目を瞑っていて、彼女が来たのに気付かなかった。
Me o tubutteite, kanojo ga kita no ni kizukanakatta.

未成年なのにお酒を飲んでいて怒られた。
Miseinen nanoni osake o nondeite okorareta.

防弾チョッキを着ていて助かった。
Boudan-chokki o kiteite tasukatta.

バブルが崩壊するとわかっていて、避けられなかった。
Baburu ga houkaisuru to wakatteite, sakerarenakatta.

In the first three examples above, the coordinate clause explains why the thing/action in the main clause occurs, thus, ～て can be rephrased as ～たから. The last one expresses the adversative conjunction, same as ～たのに/たが.

 

[LukeSettle]

未成年なのにお酒を飲んでいて怒られた。
Miseinen nanoni osake o nondeite okorareta.


Im not sure i grasp how nanoni is used here.
Is it a combination of 'na' the adjective ending, no, and ni, or a whole phrase?

Drinking as a minor made (___) angry. ?


バブルが崩壊するとわかっていて、避けられなかった。
Baburu ga houkaisuru to wakatteite, sakerarenakatta.

what is the meaning of this sentence?

 

[Toritoribe]

Oh, sorry for no translations.

未成年なのにお酒を飲んでいて怒られた。
Miseinen nanoni osake o nondeite okorareta.
Im not sure i grasp how nanoni is used here.
Is it a combination of 'na' the adjective ending, no, and ni, or a whole phrase?

Right. It's the adnominal form of the copula だ + the particle のに, and roughly means "in spite of."

I was scolded because I was drinking in spite of being underage. = I was scolded for underage drinking.

バブルが崩壊するとわかっていて、避けられなかった。
Baburu ga houkaisuru to wakatteite, sakerarenakatta.
what is the meaning of this sentence?

We had known that the economic bubble would burst someday, but we couldn't avoid it.

 

[LukeSettle]

あぁ、ありがとうございましたトリトリベサン

いそがしいのに、行きました
Even though i was busy i went.
Is that correct?

 

[Toritoribe]

あぁ、ありがとうございましたトリトリベサン

いそがしいのに、行きました
Even though i was busy i went.
Is that correct?

You can also say 忙しいけど、行きました。

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Here's another one for you. What does it mean when aru follows a verb in the te form? i.e., te aru.

I've seen this a couple of times and can't seem to make sense of it.

 

[Glenn]

It can mean someone's done something and that thing is still in that state. It's only used with transitive verbs, and is pretty much the same in meaning as using the passive form with -ている.

例：（空気をきれいにするために）窓が開けてあります。
れい：（くうきを きれいに するために）まどが あけてあります。
Example: (In order to make the air cleaner) (someone has) opened the window.

例：机の上に花が飾ってあります。
れい：つくえの うえに はなが かざってあります。
Example: Flowers are adorned on top of the desk.

It also can mean that someone's done something and the effect is continuing, or still present at the time of the utterance.

例：試験のために、たくさん勉強をしてあります。
れい：しけんの ために、たくさん べんきょうを してあります。
Example: I've studied a lot for the test.

Here the focus is on the state of having studied, not that what you did was study. Does that make sense?

*All examples and explanation from 初級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Glenn: Thanks for clearing that up. I understand what you mean, but I'm a bit confused as to why there are two forms for the same thing? You're basically saying that ta iru and te aru are interchangeable. Though is there any subtle difference between which is used or is it just a matter of preference?

 

[Glenn]

-てある requires an actor; -ている ignores it. So, 窓が開けてある is different from 窓が開けられている in that in the former, someone did the opening (it's just not mentioned) and in the latter, it doesn't matter who or what did the opening, and it's expressed like it just happened naturally.

 

[Buntaro]

Glenn,

I had never thought of it that way. When we say, "Hon ga oite aru," we are saying that there is a reason why someone put a book (on a table).

Thanks for pointing that out.

~~~

Wow, this is my 800th post. Holy moly!

 

[Glenn]

-てある requires an actor; -ている ignores it. So, 窓が開けてある is different from 窓が開けられている in that in the former, someone did the opening (it's just not mentioned) and in the latter, it doesn't matter who or what did the opening, and it's expressed like it just happened naturally.

Whoops. I just checked again, and this difference is for transitive/intransitive pairs (あけてある vs. あいている), not active vs. passive sentences (あけてある vs. あけられている). Maybe the difference is only style after all.

 

[Toritoribe]

In addition to Glenn-san's explanation, the difference between 開[あ]ける and 飾る is that the latter does not have the intransitive verb form.

窓が開[あ]いている。(te-form of the intransitive verb 開[あ]く + いる)
窓が開[あ]けてある。(te-form of the transitive verb 開[あ]ける + ある)
窓が開[あ]けられている。(te-form of the passive form of the transitive verb 開[あ]けられる + いる)

花が飾ってある。(te-form of the transitive verb 飾る + ある)
花が飾られている。(te-form of the passive form of the transitive verb 飾られる + いる)

So, te-aru form is indispensable for this type of verbs, 置く[おく], 書く[かく], 作る[つくる], 磨く[みがく]....

As for the difference between 開[あ]けてある and 開[あ]けられている, the latter connotes that the doer(opener) is not the speaker, or, someone else opened the window.

 

[LukeSettle]

You can also say 忙しいけど、行きました。

oh cool
thanks!

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Okay. nihongo broke my brain. Thanks for all the help and explanations. I'm going to read this post at a later date when I have a stronger grasp of the language.

 

[Imposter253]

In addition to Glenn-san's explanation, the difference between 開[あ]ける and 飾る is that the latter does not have the intransitive verb form.
窓が開[あ]いている。(te-form of the intransitive verb 開[あ]く + いる)
窓が開[あ]けてある。(te-form of the transitive verb 開[あ]ける + ある)
窓が開[あ]けられている。(te-form of the passive form of the transitive verb 開[あ]けられる + いる)
花が飾ってある。(te-form of the transitive verb 飾る + ある)
花が飾られている。(te-form of the passive form of the transitive verb 飾られる + いる)
So, te-aru form is indispensable for this type of verbs, 置く[おく], 書く[かく], 作る[つくる], 磨く[みがく]....
As for the difference between 開[あ]けてある and 開[あ]けられている, the latter connotes that the doer(opener) is not the speaker, or, someone else opened the window.
/QUOTE]


Would the difference between 開けている and 開けられてある be translated as "Is open" in the former and "is opened" in the latter or am I missing the point all together?

 

[Toritoribe]

Would the difference between 開けている and 開けられてある be translated as "Is open" in the former and "is opened" in the latter or am I missing the point all together?

開けている can be interpreted as two different meanings.

1) The action "to open" is ongoing. same as ちょうど開けているところだ
2) to be open for a purpose. same as 開けてある/開けたままにしている


開けられてある sounds odd. てある generally can't be used with passive forms.