The Concepts of Infidelity

[Tokis-Phoenix]

A very thoughtful and touching story indeed Tokis. I am sorry that your friend committed suicide. I do not think you understand the full complexity of what we are talking about here. There are different reasons for why people commit infidelity. There is no denying that. Yet, you must keep in mind that many of the reasons and actions for committing such an act is out of selfishness, immaturity, and inability to grasp the true meaning of what being faithful means. However, there are certain instances like your friend Alice where the victim is just as guilty as the person who started it all. No matter how you look at it infidelity is a lose-lose situation for everybody when you get right down to it.

Now I do not mean to hurt your feelings or try to destroy the good memory of your friend, but it sounds like to me that she had many issues to work out. I understand completely that she wanted to be loved and in a committed relationship, but her poor taste in men shows that there is much more to be expected than just to be loved. Not wanting to be alone and in a loving relationship are okay, but just going after those two reasons are the worst thing to do when getting into a relationship; there is a lot more at stake than you initially realize. I feel for you I really do, but I also feel that it is partially your friend's fault for not looking in the right direction when it comes to a relationship.

As for your comment about those who cheat being bad people, there are two sides to that statement. As I said, it all depends on the person and their reasons. Many people do not deserve to be forgiven for their actions. There truly are selfish and immature people out there, and many of the people who commit infidelity do it for those reasons. Some people do it out of accidents, but even then, it is a slippery slope if you are going to forgive them. It all depends on the relationship and your wiliness to forgive. As for me, I would never forgive anybody for cheating on me. Even if it was because the relationship it a hard spot or it was an accident it still does not matter in my mind. People need to take responsibility for their actions and most do not, or do it in the wrong way. Communication and working things out is the key, which is how a relationship works. Nobody said it was easy, and even with all the emotional hurt and confusion that can happen at times still does not excuse a person for their actions (for the most part).

For me, I have been hurt too many times in intimate relationships, and I am not going to take it anymore. I have literally sat by idly and forgiven time again all the abusive wrongs people have done with my self worth and love for them. Some are worse than others are if you truly knew my past. If you cheated on me I would shut you out so fast your head would spin. Sure, it may sound a bit judgmental and mean at first glance, but if you were in my shoes, I am sure you would understand my reasoning for not tolerating that type of behavior. That is just how I feel, yet I digress that it all depends on the relationship, the person(s) involved, and the situation. Whether you dump them or forgive them, it is still a slippery slope either way, and I think your story about your friend points out that infidelity is a very destructive thing no matter how you feel on the issue. Thank you again for sharing that story, and I truly am sorry for your friend's death.

Doc

I totally realise that alice had many issues within her that she needed to resolve, just as much as rory did. Rory was a good person just as much as alice was, they both had good hearts, and things might not have been half as tragic as they turned out to be if the situations/circumstances around them had given their relationship more of a chance or simply that they could have resolved some of their issues.
People are only human though, most of us have a good concept of what is right and wrong but that doesn't mean everything does or can follow what they know.
Every human alive wants to be happy at least some point in their life, unfortunatly dishonesty can somtimes seem as a means of gaining happyness, but it can never be a way of obtaining true happyness.
It does seem that you have had your fair share of hurt, and that maybe you have closed off your feelings and emotions a bit in the fear of being hurt again- that you never want to experience those emotions of hurt and anger or the complex situations that follow in the heart and mind and in the relationship.

I think the main thing here though is wether you can forgive somone for cheating on you, i think just because cheating is often wrong and almost always a path to destruction of some sort, does not mean that it is unforgivable.
I think if you have had to suffer the situation of being cheated on, the main thing is how you look at why it happened, the events leading up to the action, wether you can accept that any of it was of your contribution(if it was), and where you go from here on. Cheating can be forgivable if you assess the situation in the right way and if you allow time to heal the wounds and can make a new start and be of strong heart.
I think if somone feels so aweful though about their actions that they would rather die than live, and that they were honest enough to come out with what they had done and try to live with the consequences, then shouldn't that person be at least given a chance if you still know that deep down you love them and that they want to be with you still if you can eventually forgive them?
By the way, what is your definition of taking responsability "in the wrong way"?

 

[Mars Man]

Interesting stance indeed.

However, I do have once question for you. Since we know that different cultures and societies have different values on what they believe in morally, is not infidelity still a bad thing considering the overall damage it can do despite it being culturally acceptable or not?

Doc

Howdy there again Doc; good question--and very thought provoking indeed !
I would answer by saying that first we would have to find examples that can be used as case studies in the context of a group, culture, or society where it is accepted and/or socially known that infidelity is not a wrong thought or behavior, look at the cases of infidelity, and see what 'damage' was done. Then we would have to measure that 'damage' to see how it was seen and handled by that same group, culture, or society.

A study done by Lewis Diana, a psychologist of Virginia Commonwealth University on extra-marital sex in the Adriatic coastal area of Italy, as reported on by Dr. Helen Fisher in her book Anatomy of Love seems to suggest that in this case, there were enduring relationships, some even for life, between men and women married to others. The whole social knitting held knowledge of the fact and thus gossip regarding that was strictly intolerable because it would disrupt community cohesion and destroy family life. Scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours--the damage would only appear in talking about it, rather than doing it. The same is true with the Kuikuru who live in a single village on the Xungu River in the Amazon.

Again, from the standpoint of a moral base, we could postulate that if all members of a particular group were aware of that group's lack of understanding infidelity as a wrong or bad thought/behavior, all members could freely participate in that society in a way that would tend to diminish any damage from such thoughts or behavior in the first place. So, the pivotal point from which to look at all sides would be inherent in the word 'can'--infidelity, by nature, does not necessarily cause unnatural damage. (unnatural damage represents that which would be beyond damages caused by natural events, in the real world, be they because of biological, evolutionary, or human influence) Of course, it can, but it does not automatically, logically follow.

The point would be, in answering, then, that evolutionary biology/psychology allows for it, other primates, and animals do it too. There is as much of a down side as there is in naturally falling in love and then having the object of that hormonal emotion drop you--a natural degree of damage. In the situation where all parties are free to participate in any permutation of ways, there would be little unnatural damage. In a group or society where infidelity was neither straight-forwardly nor indirectly shown nor seen to be wrong, everyone would know the score from the beginning. (at the moment we are not looking at 'social diseases' [STDs] matters because that does not relate solely to infidelity)

Is that acceptable as an answer, at least?

 

[Doc]

I totally realise that alice had many issues within her that she needed to resolve, just as much as rory did. Rory was a good person just as much as alice was, they both had good hearts, and things might not have been half as tragic as they turned out to be if the situations/circumstances around them had given their relationship more of a chance or simply that they could have resolved some of their issues.
People are only human though, most of us have a good concept of what is right and wrong but that doesn't mean everything does or can follow what they know.
Every human alive wants to be happy at least some point in their life, unfortunatly dishonesty can somtimes seem as a means of gaining happyness, but it can never be a way of obtaining true happyness.
It does seem that you have had your fair share of hurt, and that maybe you have closed off your feelings and emotions a bit in the fear of being hurt again- that you never want to experience those emotions of hurt and anger or the complex situations that follow in the heart and mind and in the relationship.

I think the main thing here though is wether you can forgive somone for cheating on you, i think just because cheating is often wrong and almost always a path to destruction of some sort, does not mean that it is unforgivable.
I think if you have had to suffer the situation of being cheated on, the main thing is how you look at why it happened, the events leading up to the action, wether you can accept that any of it was of your contribution(if it was), and where you go from here on. Cheating can be forgivable if you assess the situation in the right way and if you allow time to heal the wounds and can make a new start and be of strong heart.
I think if somone feels so aweful though about their actions that they would rather die than live, and that they were honest enough to come out with what they had done and try to live with the consequences, then shouldn't that person be at least given a chance if you still know that deep down you love them and that they want to be with you still if you can eventually forgive them?
By the way, what is your definition of taking responsability "in the wrong way"?

That is true, but I think you must understand that not everybody can be forgiving for their acts. Some people should not be forgiven for their acts, because they continuiously do it without any regard for their fellow man. Also keep in mind that there are natural born cheaters as well, as those people hardly deserve the effort of forgiveness as they will continue their inequities whether you like it or not. Just keep in mind that dumping them or forgiving them will open up a can worms one way or the other (and can be more often worse for those who forgive because it will take an extremely long time to forgive and start things anew). As for taking responsibility in the wrong way I meant those who play the blame game. Trust me they aren't worth the trouble in the end.

Doc

 

[Doc]

Howdy there again Doc; good question--and very thought provoking indeed !
I would answer by saying that first we would have to find examples that can be used as case studies in the context of a group, culture, or society where it is accepted and/or socially known that infidelity is not a wrong thought or behavior, look at the cases of infidelity, and see what 'damage' was done. Then we would have to measure that 'damage' to see how it was seen and handled by that same group, culture, or society.

A study done by Lewis Diana, a psychologist of Virginia Commonwealth University on extra-marital sex in the Adriatic coastal area of Italy, as reported on by Dr. Helen Fisher in her book Anatomy of Love seems to suggest that in this case, there were enduring relationships, some even for life, between men and women married to others. The whole social knitting held knowledge of the fact and thus gossip regarding that was strictly intolerable because it would disrupt community cohesion and destroy family life. Scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours--the damage would only appear in talking about it, rather than doing it. The same is true with the Kuikuru who live in a single village on the Xungu River in the Amazon.

Again, from the standpoint of a moral base, we could postulate that if all members of a particular group were aware of that group's lack of understanding infidelity as a wrong or bad thought/behavior, all members could freely participate in that society in a way that would tend to diminish any damage from such thoughts or behavior in the first place. So, the pivotal point from which to look at all sides would be inherent in the word 'can'--infidelity, by nature, does not necessarily cause unnatural damage. (unnatural damage represents that which would be beyond damages caused by natural events, in the real world, be they because of biological, evolutionary, or human influence) Of course, it can, but it does not automatically, logically follow.

The point would be, in answering, then, that evolutionary biology/psychology allows for it, other primates, and animals do it too. There is as much of a down side as there is in naturally falling in love and then having the object of that hormonal emotion drop you--a natural degree of damage. In the situation where all parties are free to participate in any permutation of ways, there would be little unnatural damage. In a group or society where infidelity was neither straight-forwardly nor indirectly shown nor seen to be wrong, everyone would know the score from the beginning. (at the moment we are not looking at 'social diseases' [STDs] matters because that does not relate solely to infidelity)

Is that acceptable as an answer, at least?

It is an acceptable answer for somebody who is playing Devil's Advocate to say the least.

However, I think you underestimate the power of human emotion and spirit. Whether infidelity is culturally acceptable or not is not really the point if you look at it. There is a lot of things that we are biologically and psycholocially able to do. Murder, lie, steal, cheat, rape, etc. However, just because we are able to commit such acts doesn't mean that they are right. Even if there was a society that allowed all of those things somebody will still be harmed one way or another in the end. What I am getting to is that you really do not need morality or ethics to understand that there are certain things that are universally bad because they cause nothing but negative effects whether they are viewed as good or bad actions by society anyway. So just because infidelity may be viewed as okay in one society does not mean blanently obvious negativity of the action will go away, or be any better for that matter. Is that thought provoking enough for you?

Doc

 

[Kinsao]

That's such a sad story, Tokis - I'm really sorry to hear that your friend died.

There is no way that I wish to 'blame' the person who cheats in a relationship. It can equally well be a fault of the other partner (driving the person away while they don't want to leave completely because they still love - or at least want to do right by - their partner), or a fault of a third party (luring someone away, tempting them to cheat), or - most likely - a complex combination of things. And sometimes, like in the case of your friends, a terrible combination of circumstances where no-one is to 'blame', but where things seem to conspire to attack each partner at their weakest points.

I do think that infidelity is a sign of some kind of 'weakness', but I don't mean that to sound so negative or condemning. We all have weakness, in fact, and not one of us can say how we would behave under certain conditions, even if we know how we 'want' to behave in theory. For example, I have never cheated on any boyfriend, and I hope I wouldn't choose it, but because I am not perfect and I often make mistakes and do things that I know to be hurtful or stupid, I can't guarantee I would never do it, if the circumstances were such that I was weak or my judgement was clouded.

A lot of people do things that are considered 'unacceptable', e.g., stealing, cheating on partner, fraud, violence... etc. etc.... and in many cases (though not all), the person is not a 'bad person' (I think that's a very narrow-minded way of looking at things) but simply someone with problems or issues, someone who, for one reason or another, has difficulty to behave in a certain way, even if they know that they should.

But I think I am just stating the obvious here.

Many people do not deserve to be forgiven for their actions.

I disagree. We can never know what is going on inside another person's mind. We can never know what they are suffering, what they are feeling, and what goes towards making them think as they do.

There are some people that make me think: "If I had been given their physical and brain chemistry, their mind, their influences, their upbringing and their circumstances, by now I would probably have done a lot worse things that they have." We can never know what someone else is fighting against.

It is true that some people don't want to be forgiven, but that's an issue with themselves. I don't think anyone is qualified to judge whether or not someone deserves to be forgiven.

I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching, though. Forgiving is a lot easier to talk about than to do, and, like with cheating, I can't honestly stand up and say I'd always do the 'right thing'.

 

[Duo]

If you cheated on me I would shut you out so fast your head would spin. Sure, it may sound a bit judgmental and mean at first glance, but if you were in my shoes, I am sure you would understand my reasoning for not tolerating that type of behavior.

That's exactly how i feel... no second chances or excuses or reasons or anything... what's done is done

 

[Revenant]

Forgiveness as in the letting go of hard feelings would of course be the best way to go, regardless of whether that person deserved forgiveness or not. Anger, and hurt can only be detrimental to one's experience (and health) were one to hang on to them. Forgiveness can be a very difficult action though.

As to whether or not someone deserves another chance? I cannot say with certainty what I'd do.

 

[DoctorP]

Not to put a damper on your mood here, but has anyone thought about the fact that if they're cheating...maybe they don't care if you throw them to the curb?

 

[cursore]

Concept of infidelity:

You cheat on me: I shoot to your legs.
You have been cheating for long time: I make sure you won't be able to do it any more
You have been cheating long time, the son we have is not mine and you ask for the alimony divorcing me. Then I shoot myself.

Of course I am just kidding. that is the standard Italian stereotype

 

[Doc]

That's such a sad story, Tokis - I'm really sorry to hear that your friend died.

There is no way that I wish to 'blame' the person who cheats in a relationship. It can equally well be a fault of the other partner (driving the person away while they don't want to leave completely because they still love - or at least want to do right by - their partner), or a fault of a third party (luring someone away, tempting them to cheat), or - most likely - a complex combination of things. And sometimes, like in the case of your friends, a terrible combination of circumstances where no-one is to 'blame', but where things seem to conspire to attack each partner at their weakest points.

I do think that infidelity is a sign of some kind of 'weakness', but I don't mean that to sound so negative or condemning. We all have weakness, in fact, and not one of us can say how we would behave under certain conditions, even if we know how we 'want' to behave in theory. For example, I have never cheated on any boyfriend, and I hope I wouldn't choose it, but because I am not perfect and I often make mistakes and do things that I know to be hurtful or stupid, I can't guarantee I would never do it, if the circumstances were such that I was weak or my judgement was clouded.

A lot of people do things that are considered 'unacceptable', e.g., stealing, cheating on partner, fraud, violence... etc. etc.... and in many cases (though not all), the person is not a 'bad person' (I think that's a very narrow-minded way of looking at things) but simply someone with problems or issues, someone who, for one reason or another, has difficulty to behave in a certain way, even if they know that they should.

But I think I am just stating the obvious here.

Personally I could never cheat on anybody and I will tell you why. The first reason is becasue it is not who I am. The second reason is because if I did commit such an act I would make sure that I suffered a long painful death for my actions. The third and final reason is simply because I am extremely strong willed. I will admit I have had my moments of weakness, but I have always pulled stronger than ever because I refuse to subcum to such weaknesses, especially if they hurt me or somebody else in the end. So simply put I have a very strong will than most people. I just refuse to drag myself down to an unacceptable level of behavior, no matter how badly I may want to do it. Does that help any?

I disagree. We can never know what is going on inside another person's mind. We can never know what they are suffering, what they are feeling, and what goes towards making them think as they do.

There are some people that make me think: "If I had been given their physical and brain chemistry, their mind, their influences, their upbringing and their circumstances, by now I would probably have done a lot worse things that they have." We can never know what someone else is fighting against.

It is true that some people don't want to be forgiven, but that's an issue with themselves. I don't think anyone is qualified to judge whether or not someone deserves to be forgiven.

I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching, though. Forgiving is a lot easier to talk about than to do, and, like with cheating, I can't honestly stand up and say I'd always do the 'right thing'.

I think we can agree to disagree here. There are some people that are born cheaters, and believe me they aren't worth the effort (I should know because I have run into a few of them in my life). Some people do not want to be forgiven or refuse to see any harm in their actions. That again proves that some people should not be forgiven. Look there are two options: forgiveness and cutting it off. In most instances cutting it off is the better option in the end emotionally. However, in some instances forgiveness is the better option depending on the people, relationship, and situation at hand. Yet I disgress that forgiveness is a slippery slope because while you can forgive somebody, it may take an extremely long time for you to forget, plus your trust for them may be must less emphaized than before. You need to keep that in mind. There is no denying that there is hurt on both options, but remember forgiveness is not for everybody whether you want to believe it or not. It all depends on the people, relationship, and situation in the end.

Doc

 

[Mars Man]

There were a number of good observations by a number of folks there. Good discussion. Good observations there Doc, in that last post (#60). I can see where both you and Revenant are standing.

Regarding the points in your #54 post, of course I personally agree, in part, with the understanding you're presenting--don't forget my third paragraph in my #34, on page 2--yet would encourage more searching and pondering on just what the 'big picture' might be. I would stand steadfast on the claim that that would automatically demand that we look at the whole animal kingdom from the start. (to the degree that we can learn what the start may have more likely been)

Now, it could be true that I have underestimated the power of human emotion and spirit, although I don't personally think so. I do agree that, and I quote you here, "[I]just because we are able to commit such acts doesn't mean that they are right.[/I]". I understand the point you were making by the analogy, yet feel that it still stands to be thought about from a much wider perspective. Perhaps it would be good, to bolster your points with details of damage in groups where infidelity is no real taboo--our subject, in reality, is very different from murder, steal, rape. (I hope you did catch that I had not said there would not have been any damage.)

I fully agree with you Doc, that there are some things which are universally bad, but the later portion of that statement could stand some deeper thought, could it not? Wouldn't being 'negative' or 'positive', 'good' or 'bad' depend on the participating group consensus?

Yes, that thought is of course provoking, which is why I have been studying it. Infidelity is not a single, disjointed concept, but is tangled up with so many other factors as well. Again, the negativity of infidelity needs to be shown, from those participating in the group which moral base allows it, and everyone knows of it. I reason that a full-bodied study of this will lead to the conclusion, regarding the questions, "Do you feel infidelity is moral? Do you feel infidelity is ethical?", that the answers have been, down through hundreds of thousands of years, and are, even now, flexible.

 

[Doc]

If we look at nature we notice that there are serveral things that are universally bad, even in the animal kingdom. Let us say that we take away the concpets of intelligent thought, the concpets of right and wrong, positive and negative. What do we have left? Gut instinct that is what. Even if we were still in the primative stages of life and survival, our gut instinct still reacts to things that are universally wrong. Infidelity maybe flexible in design, but that still does not exclude the gut instinct that we have towards it of something being horribly wrong by acting it out. Our instincts and emotions help dictate our actions (unless you are not a BF Skinner fan like I am and believe that there is such thing as free will). I feel that you do not need intelligent thought to understand that there are just some things out there that are bad for us basing on an instinctual level. Of course that is just food for thought right there. Is that thought provoking enough for you Mars Man? :?

Doc

 

[Mars Man]

NIce post there Doc ! Wow, are you staying up late? or what? I was very surprized to see you answering now--after I just got back from a late lunch. One question, or thought, rather. If we take away intellegent thought, wouldn't it seem most reasonable that we'd have to take away the medial prefrontal cortex, especially the spindle cells which are so human (only a few primates have any of them) and dampen some other association centers? And, if we were to do that, then wouldn't our emotional levels drop out as well? Hummm...

There was an interesting write-up in the Chicago Tribune's Perspective as it was printed in the Daily Yomiuri, talking about the problem with the recent movie, March of the Penguins. One point was, that although the partners in mating, esp. the males, stick it out for the egg's hatching, the partners are one season stands--and it isn't like what some conservative Christian groups were trying imply by pointing to the penguin's mating ritual and hatching nature in a effort to show the value of monogamy. That is not so good an example about infidelity, but in what manner could it be said that the fact that the young chick's birth, and the end of the season, that marks the end of that relationship, where both former partners move on to later other relationships, have any inherent badness, or incurr any 'beyond-the-course-of-nature' damage?

To me it would not look like it, as that species is still propagating. The sentence had a little bit of a warp in it, but I think I got it right, and I fully agree, that if an act of infidelity causes some great damage to the other party, that act of infidelity would be wrong. Yes, that's right--but I would yet argue that that does require the degree of brain that humans, most primates, and many animals, to a lesser degree, have.

Great food for thought Doc !!

 

[Doc]

Well I meant in a concept of primative man. The neanderthal if you will. Thoughts, emotions, and various other aspects from what we can only guess during the early history of man was very new, confusing, and foreign. Simply put the mind had not advanced to what it is now, so mankind was pretty much like common animal during that time. That is what I was getting at. Yes it is late, it is actually 3:24 a.m right now. I am just a nocturnal person what can I say?

Doc

 

[Mars Man]

Sorry Doc, I have been not only tied up with the students working on their graduation papers, but in some other areas of the forum, and just could not get back here; please do forgive me.

I noticed that no one else posted since then, but if you'd like to keep it alive, I'm quite into it though I can't promise consistant posting. What do you think?

Of course, in the end we probably wouldn't agree on some of the finer points, and such, but may on the bigger picture--although, as I had said, just to make a nice debate-like argument.

Let me know. I'll keep my eye here for a few days or so. (or PM, of course is o.k.) Sorry !!:sorry: