The Concepts of Infidelity

[Doc]

If you watch certain television shows, it seems that infidelity is becoming glamorized. :?

Which angers me to no end even more. What is worse is most of these television shows who glamorize infidelity make it out to be that it is nothing more than a religious dogma issue, not an ethical issue, and since religion is sort of on the decline then don't let your life be ruled by worthless rules. At least that is what the perception those shows are giving out from what I can tell.

It's not necessarily that simple. Perhaps your current relationship isn't new. You can still have feelings for an ex years down the line. Perhaps your ex was a control freak, now you are in another bad relationship, but you feel that you can take some control by being unfaithful with your ex - not only are you rebelling against the present jerk, you are the one in control of your ex in this situation.

Yes, but is there still an excuse for committing the deed? I mean IMHO if you want to be treated well in a relationship, then you should find somebody who actually does so rather than sticking around with the current man and dragging around feelings with your ex that could really cause more harm down the road even in a new relationship.

More pathetic than anyone still living vicariously through media stereotypes and talk shows in the absence of any personally relevant experience starting a thread like this and then summarily negating any 'opposition' would be hard to say....

You know I really do not appreciate your tone at all. Just to set the record straight that top twenty list was being read on a radio talk show, but was actually from a very creditable relationship help service. However, do not know where I can find the list. I only got the chance to hear eight out of the twenty because I had to buy coffee. Therefore, I never had the chance to hear where the list was from. How do you think I found the list for the men? From the same radio show, and that time I heard where it was from (askmen.com). Therefore, do not dare to tell me that I am just being worked up over some stupid media stereotypes from a radio show host who pulled some lame listener poll out of his *** with worthless data. This stuff comes from creditable sources whether you like it or not.

Doc

 

[Elizabeth]

You know I really do not appreciate your tone at all. Just to set the record straight that top twenty list was being read on a radio talk show, but was actually from a very creditable relationship help service. However, do not know where I can find the list. I only got the chance to hear eight out of the twenty because I had to buy coffee. Therefore, I never had the chance to hear where the list was from. How do you think I found the list for the men? From the same radio show, and that time I heard where it was from (askmen.com). Therefore, do not dare to tell me that I am just being worked up over some stupid media stereotypes from a radio show host who pulled some lame listener poll out of his *** with worthless data. This stuff comes from creditable sources whether you like it or not.

Doc

These types of surveys and lists are a staple of womens and mens magazines everywhere. I have no real issue with the reasons they give or their sources, except that they are meant to be taken generally and don't often refer to the deep feelings that get so inextricably entangled and messed up in real relationships.

There are of course cases (and cultures) where divorce is difficult or impossible, where breakup is not at all inevitable, where the marriage is open to experimentation, etc etc...

 

[Index]

These types of surveys and lists are a staple of womens and mens magazines everywhere. I have no real issue with the reasons they give or their sources, except that they are meant to be taken generally and don't often refer to the deep feelings that get so inextricably entangled and messed up in real relationships.

There are of course cases (and cultures) where divorce is difficult or impossible, where breakup is not at all inevitable, where the marriage is open to experimentation, etc etc...

Elizabeth raises a good point I think, which is that it is easy to discuss morals and values that one would adhere to if one were in this or that situation, but the fact of the matter is that there is more to it than that. As mentioned there are practical issues, and different types of arrangements which make it difficult to talk about the idea of infidelity from the traditional perspective brought up by Doc. As long as both parties (or more) to the relationship are fully aware of what is going, and particularly of what they are getting involved in when, for example, getting married, I don't see the value in criticising their behaviour from a moral point of view.

This stuff comes from creditable sources whether you like it or not.

Doc I think you have valid opinions, but to claim that AskMen - Become a Better Man is credible source is a little over the top. Credible sources are peer-reviewed journals or books which are not aimed at the commercial mass market. Sites such as these, or the majority of psychology magazines available off the shelf are very generalised, often with narrow interpretations of research results, and aimed at SELLING. It's almost like claiming newspaper horoscopes are credible sources:banghead:

 

[Doc]

Doc I think you have valid opinions, but to claim that AskMen - Become a Better Man is credible source is a little over the top. Credible sources are peer-reviewed journals or books which are not aimed at the commercial mass market. Sites such as these, or the majority of psychology magazines available off the shelf are very generalised, often with narrow interpretations of research results, and aimed at SELLING. It's almost like claiming newspaper horoscopes are credible sources:banghead:

I will agree that sounded a little over the top, but that was not what I was trying to get at. I was just pointing out that you cannot completely dismiss those types of resources because there is some helpful, valuable, and reliable information that can help you in a relationship. I guess I did not make my message very clearly, and for that, you have my apology.:sorry:

As for looking at infidelity as a moral issue, I have never really used it in that context. I look at it in a practical and ethical point of view. Personally, I find anybody who commits infidelity not to be worth my time as far as being in a relationship goes. I find it to be a very cheap, selfish, and unethical choice in trying to escape from a bad relationship. It is more or less the easy way out of your problems, but unfortunately, it can never be long term. I firmly believe that people should work out their problems together in a relationship, and if one is not willing to do so and commit such an act such as infidelity, then they should not be in the relationship period.

Society seems to want to find the quick fix way out of their problems, and I find it rather sad. People do not take responsibility for their actions anymore, and actually blame somebody else for it. For example, there are men and women in marriages who commit adultery, but blame it on their significant other as the reason for committing the act. I find that rather tacky IMHO. Do you know what else gets me; that there are people who actually laugh about it. Some men and women gossip about it, and find it entertaining for some odd reason. This is not something to laugh about here. It is a serious issue that literally creates lots of damage either intentionally or unintentionally. I do not think that many people who commit these types of social injustices really do not care or fail understand the problems it can cause.

There is also the argument about that the reason why some people commit infidelity is that they do not want to hurt their partner's ego. Okay this is how I feel about that issue. If I was dating a girl, and let us say, I am not that great in bed. She refuses to tell me that because we all know that being knocked off the high horse is not fun. So she decides to cheat on me instead to work out her sexual desires instead of informing me how to fix it. What would I much rather prefer her cheating on me and the subsequent pain afterwards, or knocking me off my high horse, but bettering the relationship overall? I choose the being told I am bad in bed than having somebody cheat on me. People need to stop being so afraid to talk about their problems and just do it. Trust me it will pay off in the end. If the woman cheated on me just for the sex, but still loved me with her heart and soul it still would not matter as far as I am concerned. You are out of my life for good. Why should I forgive somebody who took the easy way out instead of actually working things out? It just breaks the circle of trust as far as I am concerned, plus there are some people who are born to cheat and I would rather not take the chance of being emotionally destroyed by the same person twice.

Therefore, when you get right down to it, infidelity is pretty much an immature act. People need to stop being afraid of working things out and just do it. Do not give me this, "but it is not that easy" BS. I know it is not easy, but who said that relationships were supposed to be? Grow a damn spine and work it out no matter how much hurt it initially creates, because it will eventually pay off in the end. That is just my take on the issue.

Doc

 

[Ma Cherie]

You know something Doc, not only that the person who cheats blames it on their partner, the person who had been cheated also begans to believe it is his or her fault. This of course is very damaging emotionally and people who cheat seem to overlook this. It's harsh on a person's self worth.:?

 

[Index]

As for looking at infidelity as a moral issue, I have never really used it in that context. I look at it in a practical and ethical point of view.

It's a matter of defining the boundaries of the relationship I think-if all parties involved are aware that one or more of the other parties are into polygamy then you just have to make up your mind if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in. In this case its a matter of communication, honesty, and maturity, and its probably not really infidelity or cheeting I guess. On the other hand if its not alright with one of the parties involved, or its done behind their back, well I think that's rotten.

 

[Kinsao]

I think that in cultures where polygamy is an accepted part of the culture, it's not really "infidelity" as we think of it... perhaps something more like "fidelity, but to more than one person"... (Well, it's difficult for me to understand, not coming from that kind of cultural background...)

In the main, I agree with Doc, and I consider infidelity to be selfish, immature and a sign of weakness. But I'm not being too vocal about it because I can never say exactly how I would behave if I was in a particular situation. Goodness knows there have been times when I have done plenty of things that I knew were stupid, and I'd be lying if I said I'd never been selfish, immature or weak. But in theory... that's another matter.

 

[Doc]

You know something Doc, not only that the person who cheats blames it on their partner, the person who had been cheated also begans to believe it is his or her fault. This of course is very damaging emotionally and people who cheat seem to overlook this. It's harsh on a person's self worth.:?

It is an extremely harsh blow to a person's self worth. Many people can even spiral out of control because of that harsh blow. Alcohol abuse, drug abuse, suicide, etc, it is not a pretty picture no matter how you look at it. Some people are so emotionally damaged that they never get into another relationship again, or even have a very difficult time getting into another one. Those emotionally devestated can eventually become self distructive. That is why I do not think a lot of people who commit such acts to their significant other realize the overall damage that can be dealt out. Even more whether the person who cheated realizes it or not, if their significant other becomes self distructive it all falls on the cheater's shoulders not the other way around. It is just not pretty no matter how you look at it.

It's a matter of defining the boundaries of the relationship I think-if all parties involved are aware that one or more of the other parties are into polygamy then you just have to make up your mind if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in. In this case its a matter of communication, honesty, and maturity, and its probably not really infidelity or cheeting I guess. On the other hand if its not alright with one of the parties involved, or its done behind their back, well I think that's rotten.

Yes but you have to realize that those types of relationships were created to help the survival of humankind in the beginning. In most cultures today such an arrangement is considered impractical and unethical. I understand where you are coming from, and with that I agree with you. However, with the standards today that type of logic does not really apply at all. The same goes for swingers as well. Hey if you and your partner enjoy sleeping with other people more power to you as that is not considered infidelity, however, it is considered unethical due to the spread of disease. Interesting point nontheless my good friend.

But I'm not being too vocal about it because I can never say exactly how I would behave if I was in a particular situation. Goodness knows there have been times when I have done plenty of things that I knew were stupid, and I'd be lying if I said I'd never been selfish, immature or weak. But in theory... that's another matter.

We have all committed some type of mistake in our lives. It is human nature after all as nobody is perfect. However, you must ask yourself the following questions:

1.) Is what I am doing right?
2.) Is what I am doing fair?
3.) Is what I am doing selfish?
4.) Is what I am doing going to cause more problems later on down the road?
5.) Is what I am doing ethical?
6.) Is what I am doing practical?
7.) Should I try and work things out before I go to an extreme?
8.) Do I have the will to prevent such a mistake from happening?

It really is all a matter of will, maturity, and the ability to work out the problems with you and your significant other. You need to ask yourself are you willing to go that far just for some quick fix, and are you willing to sacrifice everything that you have built up just for sex? You should also ask yourself if you can actually see yourself committing such an act, and is it really who you are to commit it? Only you hold the answers to those questions Kinsao.

Doc

 

[Mars Man]

There are a number of good questions and some interesting bebate and (or better) discussion going on about a few of them. Let's see, if I'm correct in my undestanding, there seem to be two basic questions, with one of them carrying the anti-thesis:

1. Do you believe in fidelity?
2. Do you feel that having one intimate, passionate, and committed partner sexually is a bad thing? (...committed sexual partner is a bad thing...may have been a better wording.) And, well, not really an 'anti-thesis' but just the opposide side of the same question: Do you feel that having sex with more than [one] partner is a good thing? Then the others.

I would tend to think--and I'm not using any absolute style of wording on purpose--that breaking some vow or even some perhaps 'unspoken' promise to view the other vower as the exclusive recipient of the fact and act of love (where 'love' includes that of agape, philos, and eros) would be far worse a thing than not. Along these lines of thinking, I'd tend to agree pretty much with a lot that has been said against such an act.

Having said that, however--and allow me, if only for the sake of making the discussion all the more worthwhile, play the devil's advocate here--I would say that there are still some definitions that should be placed upon the table, that all parties should pretty much agree on, in order to give structure and vehicle to the arguments at hand.

For one, what are we to place the concepts inherent in the term 'ethics in? (1. The study of standards of conduct and moral judgment;...3. the system or code of morals of a particular person, religion, group, profession, etc.

Dr. Michael Shermer seems to have given a clear enough definition in his book The Science of Good and Evil, on pages 6, going into 7 as follows:

"I define morality as right and wrong thoughts and behaviors in the context of the rules of a social group

Please do forgive me !! I just ran out of time, and I have to close down and leave. I don't want to file this and finish later...I know that my action here is not 'cool', yet, considering the circumstances which I cannot explain now,...I feel I can ask for you forgiveness, and understanding. I will pick up with the thought tomorrow, and finish it.

I apologize !!! :sorry: Mars Man

 

[Duo]

interesting stuff you all have going here... i think it was doc who mentioned the negative effects of cheating... how iti can destroy the other one and so forth... which i think it to be true... how about when a relationship ends becaue one partner wants and he/she moves on to someone new i think that has the same effects on the dumped person... maybe a little less humilation

 

[Elizabeth]

It is more or less the easy way out of your problems, but unfortunately, it can never be long term. I firmly believe that people should work out their problems together in a relationship, and if one is not willing to do so and commit such an act such as infidelity, then they should not be in the relationship period.

My point was that there are many instances when the basis of your argument, that the wronged partner finds out and is emotionally devestated, isn't ever likely to be realized but

: a divorce would be much more damaging to her self-esteem, the woman realizes her husband isn't sexually satisfied and does nothing, the woman may suspect but remains friendly with the mistress, the entire course of the marriage, say 15-20 years has operated on a rather formal, restrained level of communication (unbelievable to most Westerners I know) whereas he can finally open up with the lover....

Perhaps you need to spend more time in Japan where discrete infidelity is more accepted and tacitly understood, although I would have thought European culture would be more open to the possibility as well. :?

 

[Duo]

no way.... in Italy for instance men and women bugg out about being cheated or the other having a secret lover... they even have like a term -cornutto/a- for those that are being cheated on.. meaning horns growing on your head... trust me is not something pleasant...

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Yes, but is there still an excuse for committing the deed? I mean IMHO if you want to be treated well in a relationship, then you should find somebody who actually does so rather than sticking around with the current man and dragging around feelings with your ex that could really cause more harm down the road even in a new relationship.

Relationships really aren't that simple. There are all kinds of reasons why you stay with someone when you are unhappy - your family likes them, you worry what they will do if you leave them (e.g. suicide), financial reasons, fear of being alone. Granted, these are not good reasons, but it's not easy to rationalise where feelings are involved. And an act of infidelity does not necessarily cause all the harm you might expect. A one night stand with an ex might actually improve things overall, as hard as that might be to believe. The ex gets a boost to his ego ("Wow, this girl just can't get over me!"), she decides to take something for herself for a change, and if the boyfriend finds out, it might just be the wake-up call he needs to get his act together. Possible end result: the girl remembers why she left the ex ("He's not half as great as I remember"), the boyfriend realises he might just lose her and stops being a jerk.

 

[Doc]

Relationships really aren't that simple. There are all kinds of reasons why you stay with someone when you are unhappy - your family likes them, you worry what they will do if you leave them (e.g. suicide), financial reasons, fear of being alone. Granted, these are not good reasons, but it's not easy to rationalise where feelings are involved. And an act of infidelity does not necessarily cause all the harm you might expect. A one night stand with an ex might actually improve things overall, as hard as that might be to believe. The ex gets a boost to his ego ("Wow, this girl just can't get over me!"), she decides to take something for herself for a change, and if the boyfriend finds out, it might just be the wake-up call he needs to get his act together. Possible end result: the girl remembers why she left the ex ("He's not half as great as I remember"), the boyfriend realises he might just lose her and stops being a jerk.

A very interesting point that you make there. However, keep in mind that such judgement is not always that sound. It could end up backfiring, and creating an even bigger mess than before. Therefore, on the issue you just mentioned above I would suggest using your head first before committing to the act. It might just make things worse than they already are.

Doc

 

[Tsuyoiko]

A very interesting point that you make there. However, keep in mind that such judgement is not always that sound. It could end up backfiring, and creating an even bigger mess than before. Therefore, on the issue you just mentioned above I would suggest using your head first before committing to the act. It might just make things worse than they already are.

Doc

Agreed. I was just making the point that it isn't necessarily going to make things worse.

 

[Doc]

My point was that there are many instances when the basis of your argument, that the wronged partner finds out and is emotionally devestated, isn't ever likely to be realized but

: a divorce would be much more damaging to her self-esteem, the woman realizes her husband isn't sexually satisfied and does nothing, the woman may suspect but remains friendly with the mistress, the entire course of the marriage, say 15-20 years has operated on a rather formal, restrained level of communication (unbelievable to most Westerners I know) whereas he can finally open up with the lover....

Perhaps you need to spend more time in Japan where discrete infidelity is more accepted and tacitly understood, although I would have thought European culture would be more open to the possibility as well. :?

Different cultures, different values. Just because it works in Japan doesn't mean that it is acceptable and works in the rest of the world. I think you forget that Japan's social structure is setup that way to begin with. The thought of spreading disease and unwanted pregnancies are not really considered a high concern for them. As long as both parties are equally happy, there is a family unit, and no consideration for divorce, then everything else is out the window as far as emtional and social structure is concerned.


As for the divorce being destructive it depends on the relationship. If a person just wants out of the marriage without committing adultry then it would be destructive to the other spouse. However, I would think that committing adultry in a marriage no matter how much communication there is is more harmful than the actual divorce is. As a matter of fact in most cases the spouse who is cheated on would much rather have the divorce than be considered second best to some mistress. I think you fail to understand that western cultures are a little be more concerned about social values and health than those in Japan. Hell most of the Japanese think that AIDS is something that they will never catch.

Obviously the ignorance if very high and not taken into consideration with their culture. Just because it works for them does not mean it works for everybody else. The Japanese truly live behind rose colored glasses as far as humanity is concerned.

Different cultures, different social structures, and different issues help dictate our acceptance of what is good and bad. Discrete infidelity may be considered okay in Japan, but that doesn't mean that it is in other societies. You have to take other factors into consideration, or otherwise you will never truly understand the bigger picture for other people and their respective cultures.

Doc

 

[Doc]

There are a number of good questions and some interesting bebate and (or better) discussion going on about a few of them. Let's see, if I'm correct in my undestanding, there seem to be two basic questions, with one of them carrying the anti-thesis:

1. Do you believe in fidelity?
2. Do you feel that having one intimate, passionate, and committed partner sexually is a bad thing? (...committed sexual partner is a bad thing...may have been a better wording.) And, well, not really an 'anti-thesis' but just the opposide side of the same question: Do you feel that having sex with more than [one] partner is a good thing? Then the others.

I would tend to think--and I'm not using any absolute style of wording on purpose--that breaking some vow or even some perhaps 'unspoken' promise to view the other vower as the exclusive recipient of the fact and act of love (where 'love' includes that of agape, philos, and eros) would be far worse a thing than not. Along these lines of thinking, I'd tend to agree pretty much with a lot that has been said against such an act.

Having said that, however--and allow me, if only for the sake of making the discussion all the more worthwhile, play the devil's advocate here--I would say that there are still some definitions that should be placed upon the table, that all parties should pretty much agree on, in order to give structure and vehicle to the arguments at hand.

For one, what are we to place the concepts inherent in the term 'ethics in? (1. The study of standards of conduct and moral judgment;...3. the system or code of morals of a particular person, religion, group, profession, etc.

Dr. Michael Shermer seems to have given a clear enough definition in his book The Science of Good and Evil, on pages 6, going into 7 as follows:

"I define morality as right and wrong thoughts and behaviors in the context of the rules of a social group

Please do forgive me !! I just ran out of time, and I have to close down and leave. I don't want to file this and finish later...I know that my action here is not 'cool', yet, considering the circumstances which I cannot explain now,...I feel I can ask for you forgiveness, and understanding. I will pick up with the thought tomorrow, and finish it.

I apologize !!! :sorry: Mars Man

I completely wish the most horrible ill against you.

Just kidding!

Devil's Advocate you say? Hmm, I can see where you are getting at, but I think as far as ethics go we are discussing the concept of social injustices society wise and the spreading of disease. Interesting proposal nontheless. Maybe if you get back into this thread we can discuss more about your stance. Oh and morality IMHO is used by most people in a religious sense more than a interpersonal and ethical sense. You decide on which one dictates your feelings more.

Doc

 

[kirei_na_me]

Happy 800th post, Doc.

Back to topic...

 

[Elizabeth]

In the main, I agree with Doc, and I consider infidelity to be selfish, immature and a sign of weakness. But I'm not being too vocal about it because I can never say exactly how I would behave if I was in a particular situation. Goodness knows there have been times when I have done plenty of things that I knew were stupid, and I'd be lying if I said I'd never been selfish, immature or weak. But in theory... that's another matter.

Yes, I basically agree. I think having flexibly navigated complex interpersonal situations in the past is the only way really to give yourself the resiliency and confidence you need to deal with these things constructively without going into crisis mode at every perceived failure.

 

[kirei_na_me]

I'll leave it at this: no one has the right to judge before knowing both sides.

 

[Doc]

I'll leave it at this: no one has the right to judge before knowing both sides.

I agree to that. However, if my lover ended up cheating on me I would cut them out of my life really quick. Even if it was an accident such as getting royally drunk and having a one night stand, I still would not take her back. I know it sounds really unfair, but you have to kind of look it from my perspective. I have been betrayed too many times in my life in relationships, and yet I would still forgive the person. However, after my last relationship I decided enough was enough. I am sick and tried of having my trust thrown away like that. So in all honesty I would not hear my lover out at all, but that is just because I do not tolerate that type of behavior. Yet as I said before everybody is different in handling the situation, and this is just my take on it.

Doc

 

[Mars Man]

I woke up this morning feeling, for some unexplainable reason, very ill. . .a heavy headache, my stomach twisted in excruciating turmoil, a cloud of bad luck and evil spells hovering just above my head as my brain slowly pried my eyes open, to venture once again, into the real world. The nerve wracking feeling of someone poking at a voodoo doll from across miles of ocean. . .
and it felt so good !! hee, hee, hee .... just kidding

SO...to pick up where I so rudely left off yesterday--but there was something beyond my control, here at school that did it. Sorry !!!

Yes, Dr. Shermer's definition, from the beginning, again:
I define morality as right and wrong thoughts and behaviors in the context of a social group. I define ethics as the scientific study of and theories about moral thoughts and behaviors in the context of the rules of a special group.

What you have pointed out Doc, in your answer to my post, is well taken. It's good to see that you take the subject very seriously, I do too; which is why I like to look at it from all sides, to really get to know just what it might actually be.

I still contend that we must work on formating the definitions; primarily due the fact that the idea behind the term 'ethics' or its form 'ethical', we have to have 'morals' or 'morality'. I mean, if we look at that third definition given for 'ethics' by Webster's New World Dictionary--Second College Edition, I don't see how we can surgically cut 'morals' or 'morality' out of the picture. Before we can discuss ethics, we have to have a moral base--otherwise it appears altogether meaningless to me, at least.

It would seem logical enough, that we would then have to look at the moral fabric of the society we would have under the microscope. So that if we were to discuss how social injustices effect and affect society as a whole--all the while keeping the field of discussion delimited to infidelity (which I would take to include adultry, but not philandering when beyond these former terms)--I can't help but return to the point where we would have to define just what social moral code there is, upholding the consistency of that same society. Refering to the 'West', America in particular, I'd bet we would end up with Christian morality staring us in the face, more than anything else.

In short, therefore, if society sees any behavior or thought as being unethical in nature, it would have to be, by very definition, based on a gound rule moral. Even in the personal sphere, the personal ethic would have to based on a personal moral, and that moral would have to either match, relatively compare with, or oppose the more widely held moral value which that ethical point is being structured from--do you see what I mean?

I've a lot more to say, but I don't want to let one post get so long. . .

 

[Doc]

Interesting stance indeed.

However, I do have once question for you. Since we know that different cultures and societies have different values on what they believe in morally, is not infidelity still a bad thing considering the overall damage it can do despite it being culturally acceptable or not?

Doc

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

This is not a question of wether or not you agree on cheating/infidelity, there are hundreds of thousands of situations of where cheating in a relationship can take place and i do not believe the person you cheats is always in the wrong completely- what i do know is that very few people take the prospect of cheating on their partner lightly.

..... ..... .....

I believe the when people cheat on a partner they are doing it as a form of an outlet from their current relationship or life- an escape, a comfort, a loss of hope.
I believe that somone can cheat on them and still still their partner very much, love is a complex issue and a person can still love their partner deep down even when they cheat on them...
I had a very close friend, she used to tell me everything about her life and relationships...She had experienced her fair share of failed relationships, often through no fault of her own from what i gathered- i could tell that deep down she wanted to be loved more than anything else, she wanted an honest man to share her life with, she always dreamt of a fairy tale ending.

She hadn't been in a relationship for almost a year when she met a guy who worked at the local pub in town who was also a good freind of mine, they started going out with each other and made each other very happy. Let us call my freind Alice and her boyfriend Rory.
I know that alice realy wanted a long term relationship with rory but rory was not so keen on it, he said he just wanted to take things as they came but i knew that realy he just wanted to have a no-strings attached relationship with alice. Alice was completely oblivious to this, as time went by she fell more and more in love with rory, i know that rory felt deep feelings for alice as well but i don't think they were strong enough to be called love- it was more "care" for alice than "love". I think he found alot of comfort in alice. Rory had a depression problem for god knows how long, he was always in debt and had little self confidence, he worked at the pub full time but he never earned enough money to pay off his debts. Because alice and rory shared an appartment together they both paid 50% of the rent each but rory started not being able to pay his part of the bills and alice found great difficulty in having to support both of them, this started to put much strain on their relationship.
Rorys grandfather died of cancer and he started to drink alot, he always used to drink alot but was able to handle it, now he just started drinking himself drunk until alice had to come to the pub and drag him back home and put him in bed. This went on for months, Alice started to get really paranoid he was cheating on her because rory was apparently not wanting to have sex with her any longer- he just stayed longer and longer periods of time at the pub or having freinds stay over at their flat for days and sleeping in the sitting room.
Alice said to me that she really wanted things to work out, that she couldn't understand why things were going so wrong. To be honest i have to admit that even from a glance i could tell that Alice was very controlling and porsessive in their relationship, she started to get worse on these factors the more she worried about rory. I know that alice had also really wanted a baby for years. The more alice controlled rory and doubted him the further he drifted apart from her- i honestly don't know if he was cheating on her at this point or if he ever did. I know that rory felt very trapped in their relationship, he had alot of issues with his depression and that he could barely face looking at his debts, the more he dug himself a hole the less he seemed to care about his life or well-being. I think most of why he stayed with alice was because he had very few people in his life at that point who cared about him, he had lost most of his family and was always a shy kind of guy- i think rory sought comfort in being with alice but it was always a love/hate sort of thing, he always hated himself for everything he did.
Alice... Met a friend of a friend of rorys- he was quite a gentlemen, a womaniser from i heard. I know that alice was desperatly looking for love at this point, she always blamed herself on everything, she couldn't face the fact that she loved rory but he hadn't really shown his love to her for a long time because of his own issues...Alice and the stranger guy became friends, he was really nice, he always took alice out and talked to her, he gave a part to alices life that she had been craving for a long time i think.
Alice started to get into arguements with rory all the time, he treated her like a doormat but i know that his situation wasn't that much different from alice's.
They had a really bad arguement one night when rory was drunk, alice went back to her mums for a couple of days.

She cheated on rory, but when she met rory he had bought her some flowers and really wanted to honestly make up...Alice was distraught, i don't know all the details, but i think she couldn't live with herself for what she had done, cheating on rory. She told rory what had happened, he was very upset but he understood...

Alice committed suicide a couple of weeks of telling rory because she couldn't live with herself for what she had done.
I don't know what happened to rory, i left town and that was that last i heard of him- i don't even know if he is alive or not.

.... ..... ......

But, i think that alot of peoples comments on here have been very narrow-minded, that is always the person who cheats who is the evil bastard or whatever, that they should just deal with their relationship issues whatever the cost etc.

Its not a question of wether you agree with cheating or not, wether you have an issue with faithful reltionships or not; its the situation that takes place that seriously counts more than anything else and somtimes both people are to blame, somtimes no one is to blame, somtimes it is either of them to blame etc etc etc....
"sigh"...I just thought i would tell you this story as alot of you seem to think that cheating is dumb, selfish and imoral and who ever cheats is the one in the wrong, but when i think about alice i know that she had her emotions taken advantage of when she was in a state of turmoil and depression and that she still loved rory but could not see the light at the end of the tunel anymore. I am not saying rory is to blame, but rather the whole thing was a seriously tragic series of events that led to the loss of one my friends.

 

[Doc]

A very thoughtful and touching story indeed Tokis. I am sorry that your friend committed suicide. I do not think you understand the full complexity of what we are talking about here. There are different reasons for why people commit infidelity. There is no denying that. Yet, you must keep in mind that many of the reasons and actions for committing such an act is out of selfishness, immaturity, and inability to grasp the true meaning of what being faithful means. However, there are certain instances like your friend Alice where the victim is just as guilty as the person who started it all. No matter how you look at it infidelity is a lose-lose situation for everybody when you get right down to it.

Now I do not mean to hurt your feelings or try to destroy the good memory of your friend, but it sounds like to me that she had many issues to work out. I understand completely that she wanted to be loved and in a committed relationship, but her poor taste in men shows that there is much more to be expected than just to be loved. Not wanting to be alone and in a loving relationship are okay, but just going after those two reasons are the worst thing to do when getting into a relationship; there is a lot more at stake than you initially realize. I feel for you I really do, but I also feel that it is partially your friend's fault for not looking in the right direction when it comes to a relationship.

As for your comment about those who cheat being bad people, there are two sides to that statement. As I said, it all depends on the person and their reasons. Many people do not deserve to be forgiven for their actions. There truly are selfish and immature people out there, and many of the people who commit infidelity do it for those reasons. Some people do it out of accidents, but even then, it is a slippery slope if you are going to forgive them. It all depends on the relationship and your wiliness to forgive. As for me, I would never forgive anybody for cheating on me. Even if it was because the relationship it a hard spot or it was an accident it still does not matter in my mind. People need to take responsibility for their actions and most do not, or do it in the wrong way. Communication and working things out is the key, which is how a relationship works. Nobody said it was easy, and even with all the emotional hurt and confusion that can happen at times still does not excuse a person for their actions (for the most part).

For me, I have been hurt too many times in intimate relationships, and I am not going to take it anymore. I have literally sat by idly and forgiven time again all the abusive wrongs people have done with my self worth and love for them. Some are worse than others are if you truly knew my past. If you cheated on me I would shut you out so fast your head would spin. Sure, it may sound a bit judgmental and mean at first glance, but if you were in my shoes, I am sure you would understand my reasoning for not tolerating that type of behavior. That is just how I feel, yet I digress that it all depends on the relationship, the person(s) involved, and the situation. Whether you dump them or forgive them, it is still a slippery slope either way, and I think your story about your friend points out that infidelity is a very destructive thing no matter how you feel on the issue. Thank you again for sharing that story, and I truly am sorry for your friend's death.

Doc