Suggestion or idea?

[KirinMan]

I would like to suggest that a method be devised that people here on the board can identify or recognize when members here have been warned about posts that are either offending or insulting to other members.

There are times when there are offensive posts made on the board and not been deleted, to the causual user there is no way of knowing if any action has been taken against the poster or the thread in question, particularly when the post stays where it is and has not been altered/edited/deleted by an admin or moderator here.

It is very likely/possible that the admin or mod's are doing something, like giving the member a warning or some appropriate administrative action but none of the other members are aware if or any action has been taken at all. In my opinion it creates confusion as to what is allowable or otherwise when posting here.

What about a mod or admin making or inserting a comment into any offending posts with a line or disclaimer stating that "administrative action has been taken on this post" which allows all members here know that there may have been something, or is something offending about the post in question.

Also I would like to request that a better definition of what is considered to be "offending" included in the forum rules.

For example only here.......

If making an insinuation about someone is considered to be against the rules please include it as such and define what insinuations can or can not be made, as moderating then becomes purely subjective in nature, which also in my opinion is flawed as well. Also please define why making an insinuation about another member or their post is against the rules and what punitive actions will be taken if a post is found that is against the rules.

When does that subjectivity become censoring? Just because a member makes an insinuation and then getting a warning for the post isnt that a form of censoring as well?



Does anyone have any comments on this?

 

[Mars Man]

If I may here: The initial reaction to the presentation above brought back memories of some arguments I recall having seen over the matter of laws that make public identification of convicted sex offenders required--such as a sign in the yard, etc.

I think I can understand the emotion and state of understanding behind the proposal. Storms have, in the past, swept through the friendly neighborhood of JREF, creating such emotions and states of understanding that have caused some, such as myself, to speak out for greater transparency. Even at that time, as now as well, I held to a balance of such matters--too much of a good thing, even, can be more detrimental in the long run.

Without prying into what may have caused such an emotion at this time, I'd offer the view that trying to pin down what a mental center (brain, let's say) takes offense at is like trying to describe the finer nuances of all the brains that are out there--a real task, indeed. I would vouch for an educational process, whereby people (and I'm not talking simply about our JREF on-line community here) have the opportunity to learn about ethical, moral, and judgmental values and therefore be more ready to accept how another may stand, all the while having the other party understand his/her stance.

It's no great wisdom at all to point out that what may cause one mind to feel offense or insult, may not draw out such emotion another mind. Where do we draw the line on the edges of the bell curve? What particular act or statement falls on the outside of the mean--thus causing an 'Illegal' act?

This is not to insinuate that there be no accepted norm of what is insulting or offensive, but simply to show that broad and objective, well-thought out judgement is most likely going to be need on an almost case by case basis. At the moment, as far as I can see (and speaking only for myself) things that come up before the moderating team and administration to look over are being considered and looked over, yet on a pace that may not be as up tempo as some would like, or hope for. I think that's fair enough, for now.

I do not feel that it would be good to allow JREF to develop into a 'law book' mentality, while it would be good to attend to the educating process in a fair and balanced transparent manner. Let's see what others think.

 

[KirinMan]

If I may here: The initial reaction to the presentation above brought back memories of some arguments I recall having seen over the matter of laws that make public identification of convicted sex offenders required--such as a sign in the yard, etc.

If I may, I agree that going this far would be improper as well, and not to go into details what motivated this thread, please understand that it was a situation that at best made a number of people upset to say the least. I would like to state for the record here that I personally feel it was handled as best as possible at the time, however the situation raised a few more questions, hence this thread.

It's no great wisdom at all to point out that what may cause one mind to feel offense or insult, may not draw out such emotion another mind. Where do we draw the line on the edges of the bell curve? What particular act or statement falls on the outside of the mean--thus causing an 'Illegal' act?

This is very true as well, it is as you may agree impossible to fully understand each and every person making a post here as a member, and let me further state that I also feel that the mod's here are doing a more than admirable job.

This is not to insinuate that there be no accepted norm of what is insulting or offensive, but simply to show that broad and objective, well-thought out judgement is most likely going to be need on an almost case by case basis. At the moment, as far as I can see (and speaking only for myself) things that come up before the moderating team and administration to look over are being considered and looked over, yet on a pace that may not be as up tempo as some would like, or hope for. I think that's fair enough, for now

I think that it is only human to expect that the team moderating this site use it's collective judgement in making decisions on a case by case basis. I am not suggesting anything different.

I am only suggesting that the collective "brain trust" of the admin team and membership here possibly come up with a method of helping to keep the peace or should I say help to manage the emotions that often run high on divisive issues.

On these divisive issues and others as well there are often comments made that in my opinion add stress and emotion to the respondents on occasion. It is too easy to forget that there is a real "human being" sitting behind the screen and not J-Bot that is making replies. Also on occasion there are posts made that are down right deragatory in nature, some which may have caused or brought a moderator into action, however the posts themselves stay, and the people viewing the posts or the person that the post is directed towards have absolutely no idea what or any corrective action has been taken. Noone knows either way, unless a mod makes a comment.

Thus the replies get more stringent and attacking by nature and in the end a thread gets either temporarily or permantly locked/deleted. Much to the chagrin of all involved.

I do not feel that it would be good to allow JREF to develop into a 'law book' mentality, while it would be good to attend to the educating process in a fair and balanced transparent manner. Let's see what others think.

I agree with this as well, yet if there are no set guidelines and all moderating is purely left to the subjective thinking of the moderating team and admin alone members are left up to the whim of said team in deciding what is appropriate or otherwise. Also members are left with no recourse in who to discuss issues that they may have with a moderator. It is difficult then for people to openly participate on threads that bring out the strong emotions.

It also helps to know when a mod is posting as a mod and not as a member.
Lastly has anyone here ever thought about setting up an open fora here that is not moderated beyond language use alone? Or something similar?

 

[Davey]

My two cents:

I do not think it is nesaccery for moderators to write a message when an action is taken against a member. When you report a post you should trust the moderation that they will take care of it (all the moderators are chosen by the admin and have been here for a while to know what is allowed and what is not allowed).

If you see that you have a post has not been deleted after a while, even though you reported it, it means it is not that offensive. If someone post something really offensive we will receive a couple of reported posts, and every day there are at least 3-5 mods who check into it.

About the rules, one of the admins is still working on a Jref constitution which I (and many others) hope it will come this spring.

 

[Mars Man]

I am only suggesting that the collective "brain trust" of the admin team and membership here possibly come up with a method of helping to keep the peace or should I say help to manage the emotions that often run high on divisive issues.

From reading over your post, Obeika san, and thinking about it, I think that you understand my thoughts, and have amplified them well. Regarding the above quote, I think that one thing would be to encourage understanding among members--namely and firstly, the understanding that on some subjects or issues there will naturally be divisions and disagreement, and that there need not be any push to convert or convince or overcome in argument--past a moderate point. (and there's that catch again...what is a moderate point...it is a little vauge, I'll agree)

I also look forward to the constitution that is in the making.

 

[KirinMan]

(and there's that catch again...what is a moderate point...it is a little vauge, I'll agree)

However well said as usual.

I also look forward to the constitution that is in the making.

Me too, hopefully some of these issues can be taken care of then as well.

 

[KirinMan]

Dont take this wrong....

If you see that you have a post has not been deleted after a while, even though you reported it, it means it is not that offensive.

Out of everything else I have seen written so far on this thread this quote here stands out the most as an example of how members may feel about a reported post or selective moderating. Excuse me let me clarify this, as an example of one of the reasons I started this thread in the first place.

Case in point I refer to a reported post, reported to the moderators a while back and again last night, however it has not been deleted nor any action shown that the information included in the post was modified, it stands as it is. So that wasn't offensive to you? Now I could start making claims of bias against a persons nationality, a type of discrimination per say.

I could start throwing a whole bunch more up here as well, insinuating posts that people are thieves and others as well, reported ones and ones not reported, but according to this quote here none of them are that offensive, however you hand out warnings for someone making insinuations about another member being a..........

Do you follow the reasoning now for suggesting that some system be instituted regarding these types of posts.

I agree with MM and I think he understands me as well, Dutch I'm sorry that I dont agree with this quote above here that you made.

do not think it is nesaccery for moderators to write a message when an action is taken against a member. When you report a post you should trust the moderation that they will take care of it (all the moderators are chosen by the admin and have been here for a while to know what is allowed and what is not allowed).

Should trust them yes, however do not always, the reasons why have been stated as clearly as possible. Also please remember we are not children here either, in a way this comes across very condescendingly.

Hopefully you will not read this and think it is an attack against you or any of the other mods here, it is a response to a few observations that I have made on certain handling of different posts.

I am not asking you or any other mod to reveal state secrets in what actions or not have been taken against a post or thread in question, but to just make things a bit easier on us posting here to know that something has been done. Think about it a second, this is a web forum and not a NORAD missle site.

Notifying a member who has reported a post, by PM, that the post was looked at and the decision made or reasons why nothing has been done would also be a good way to let people know that they are not being ignored. Otherwise it is similar to not having questions responded to in a post, and nobody likes that either.

 

[Mars Man]

Now I might say there, my dear fellow JREFer, that you do get up early !! I think I must have just started to rise into REM sleep about that time.

I think I can more clearly see the reason for your starting this thread now. I think I understand your position and concern, and do agree that communiction is a very valuable and delicate thing.

Of course, when studying oral communication and discussion, one thing that we'll learn is that the listening mode is actually more important than the speaking mode--reception should come before transmission. For that reason, almost ironically, the transmission should be as syntactically sound as possible and thus demands great importance too.

Ones keeping in mind, this ideal pattern of communication, and applying the sensitivity of heart--say, altruism, if you will--when reading between the lines, will help in not only keeping communication lines open and flowing, but in maintaining an atmosphere of postitive thought and emotion. (not that will always happen, of course, but at least their would be greater resistence against such)

I greatly appreciate your speaking out, and trust your ability to weigh in the human factor--all the while giving the benefit of the doubt--and then present the following:

I made a statement once, not worded so well, towards sabro which he stood up on and came back in a rather strongly worded manner. To that I apologized for any misconstruction I may have cause, and pointed out my alarm at the seeming force of the comeback, to which he aplogized--and that was then and there, laid to rest, and has never been brought up again in any points of disagreement we have between us. Neither do I hold it against him, nor he--I fully trust--against me.

A bad post made by an ex-member once got deleted by a moderator. A post I had made afterwards which did not directly answer to that particular post, but had content which did bear on the area of subject was also deleted along with that. That action had been requested by the member whose post had been firstly deleted by that moderator. The moderator PMed me and basically explainde why my post had been deleted, to which I answered saying that is was cool, and that I understood the situation. I never worried about it again.

Recently I have noticed that a post of mine had been deleted by a moderator other than myself. My stance, after feeling around in my heart, was that in trusting the fairness of that objective as seen in that fellow JREFer's eyes, I could put that also aside, and move on.

The point I hope to emphasize here is that by taking the time to step back, look in the mirrow after having first looked at all the universe around us, maybe we can point at that reflection, give a smile or two, a chuckle or a laugh, then wink and say to ourselves...silly little me, in all this great mass of known and unknown.

Communication is very important; let's keep communicating. Giving the other communicating partner the benefit of the doubt can be a great lubricant making reception better; let's keep listening carefully and patiently. Giving room for the human element in the other and in ourselves, will strengthen the whole process; may we all step back from time to time and readjust ourselves.

NOTE: The effort here is to re-enforce that within myself as much as to offer any others on JREF to strive for the same. This is not directed towards the OP alone, nor anyone else alone. This has been done as a human firstly, a member of JREF secondly, and as a team member of JREF thirdly--for whatever weight that may, or may not have. MM

 

[Davey]

Dont take this wrong....


Out of everything else I have seen written so far on this thread this quote here stands out the most as an example of how members may feel about a reported post or selective moderating. Excuse me let me clarify this, as an example of one of the reasons I started this thread in the first place.

Sorry I spend to much on the forum yesterday lol,

Let me re-quote the text because after re-reading it now I see that I forget to add maybe.

If you see that you have a post has not been deleted after a while, even though you reported it, it MAYBE means it is not that offensive.

What maybe sounds offensive for you doesn't mean it sounds offensive for the rest. When a reported post comes up and a mod doesn't know what to do with it he/she will ask another moderator about it.

I have read your post, and don't feel attacked.

I also wonder if there are any other members that are having problems with the way that Jref mods are handling the forum, because I only see Obeika posting in this thread.

We team members try to take care of the forum, most of the time it goes great and sometimes... well we aren't perfect.

Thank you for this thread, I will remember this one the next time a reported post comes up.

 

[KirinMan]

This is to both Dutch and Mars Man, a very big thanks for responding as you both have, in my heart I am sure that you both and the rest of your team are very considerate and working hard to do your best here.

I appreciate your both taking the time to share your thoughts and I will take them to heart. I think that I have gotten what I wanted to share with all of you here across and for me your understanding is most appreciated.

 

[yukio_michael]

I think one problem that exists is the repetition of the same sort of polemic over and over again. I'm not talking about questions like "How do I live in Japan and become a Japanese citizen and stay there for the rest of my life, also, where is Japan located on a map?"...

I'm talking more about the types of posts that either a) make broad and generalized statements about the character or nature of Japan or Japanese culture (though some of these just may be uninformed, not simply insulting), or of course, the onerous Japanese Guy / Japanese Girl threads which seem to raise some ire in many, myself included.

I've been guilty of "taking the bait" as it were, and have added some dissonance to a few threads which in all honestly, should have been left alone to die a horrible lonely death... It's what Sylvia Plath called "The Courage in Shutting Up..."

I think we all know that none of us are perfect, and this forum presents a very rare opportunity for people who live, or have lived in Japan, people interested in Japan, and most importantly the Japanese members we have themselves, to discuss culture and cultural differences... I mean that's the whole point, isn't it?

On message boards like 2ch, they have a process called "age" & "sage", if a thread has merit, it is "aged" by people posting in it, meaning it stays active and closer to the top of the page. On the other hand, when the word sage is entered into the email address section of the post (2ch operates on an anonymous basis, and the email address is mainly used to sage a thread), ...when a thread is saged, it gains no comments whatsoever*, and slowly but surely, falls off the board.

This brings to mind negative rep points, back in the day, when users could give negative rep points it had an adverse effect that if someone simply didn't like what you were saying, then they could give you negative rep points regardless of the merit of your words... You could simply be disagreeing with them, and they could flag your comment as negative.

I don't know, at least for now I don't imagine a way that users could decide to sage a Jref thread... It works as a ratio between how many people sage a thread and how many age (or bump, in common parlance, to add a comment), the thread... In that way, an offensive thread... and no I'm not speaking of our occasional Korean visitor who offers us the same offensive diatribe each time he sneaks through the gates, but some threads (of which I could offer a few recent examples), which seem to spark controversy the moment they are posted, could simply fade away through the system as new threads propagate and the old thread dies away... though it would of course still remain on the system.

Of course the best advice is just not to respond to a thread you find offensive, and this is a very very hard thing to do, at least for me, when someone says this is or that sort of common offensive thing, it's hard not to respond. I've been on the forum long enough, some two years, this past march, and I should know better, but sometimes I lose my temper and react in a way I shouldn't.

Sometimes people bump threads needlessly, and luckily, and I'll thank Mars Man again for recently locking a thread that was made some two years ago which really had no purpose for further replies, and you have the blind leading the blind, and here again is where the sage process comes in... You have to have a group of people, responsible enough to know when a thread should be saged...

It works well in systems like 2ch, because veterans of the forum chose the content that the forum contains, and sages inappropriate content... Of course, 2ch may be much more linear, I'm not advocating that forum veterans or moderators "choose the content" of the forum... but it's an interesting concept to consider...

Again, if we could all (myself included), try to avoid threads that will seemingly erupt into a vicious flame war, we would be doing ourselves a favour. I'm not preaching, I'm just relating my own indiscretions, and what I think I should have done instead.

Thanks for entertaining any of these ideas if you've read this far!

*Actually, you can in fact add a comment to a thread on 2ch while you sage it, but for our purposes that would be counter-productive to what I've said above.

 

[Mars Man]

Thank you for sharing there, yukio_michael san. It's good to communicate like that; good to step back and look into the mirrow...and encourage others to remember the value of doing the same.

I'll keep your points in mind. . . and your welcome, thank you ! MM