Subtle and Rude; its the Japanese way?

Obviously there are different kinds of women. I have dated a woman like you, yukio and nurizeko, but I have dated more subdued ones. I mean subdued towards expressing love, of course.

But of course if you're together from the onset for a significant amount of time, it's easier to come to a situation you are both happy with.

I disagree with the notion that she was "toying" with you, Wally. I think she is just much more similar to the kind of woman that I tend to have dated.

Incidentally, when breaking up, it seems that the man usually assumes the blame (especially for serious relationships) in Japan, whether he was truly at fault or not. Part of being a man, I guess.

It seems it wasn't anybody's fault in my opinion, I liked this girl too and then she started Ignoring me I guess but I never blamed her, I only thanked her for being in my life... we're just friends now, I mean she is in high school and I am in college now...

Hey Wally,

How well I can identify with your situation, your feeling of frustration, confusion, perplexity, or just, "Gee, I feel like I have been used..."

I'm new to this forum, but not new to Japan and Far Eastern culture. My first experience with a Japanese gf gave me exactly the same kind of headaches as you had. Believe me, you are not alone. I think this kind of problem is very common when a man and a woman form a relationship across the East-West cultural divide.

Now, after 25+ years of association with Japanese people, I quite understand how this problem developed between you and your gf.

Also, it is not just a Japanese-American thing, but rather an East-West cultural difference. If a Taiwanese or mainland Chinese or Korean or Filipino (or Japanese) guy tells his gf, "Honey, your so sweet and I love you" the gf is likely to think he has a fever which has affected his brain.

Seriously. I have discussed this topic many times over the years with friends from all those counties I mentioned, and I can tell you with certainty that, for example, a Japanese couple married for even 40 or 50 years and never once saying "I love you" is nothing unusual. In Japan, the most treasured feelings shared between a couple are those that are expressed often and in many different ways without ever being put into words.

This is one of the subtle and beautiful aspects of Eastern culture--deep feelings being clearly expressed without uttering a single word. After living in Asia for many years, now even I find it odd the way a lot of American couples tell each other "I love you" several times a day. It now seems quite odd. But worse yet, those words may have once had meaning, but if they are overused in that way, do they not tend to become meaningless?

Wally, I hope you take all of this as constructive--including the wise counsel of the other forum members who have replied to your post.

Hope you have peace and happiness...

Wally,

After going back and rereading all your posts on this topic, I would like to add a few more thoughts --

First, I think it is admirable the way you have dealt with all the frank and straight-forward responses you have received and still remain relatively unruffled. That is a very good sign, because it indicates you are able to listen to advise even when the subject may be sensitive or painful.

Secondly, there is one more aspect to this problem you had with your gf that clearly goes beyond cultural differences.

I hope you won't take offense, but I'm talking about the basics of how to attract and keep a girl's interest. Many times, gf/bf relationships are a kind of "battle of wits" like a poker game. If you show your "hand" more than your partner does, you could very easily lose.

While you were separated from her--when you reached the point where you became worried about her "true feelings" and you decided that you would ask her straight-out...

STOP!!!

The game has already gone too far and you have already lost. Don't go any further--you will only embarrass yourself more. Believe me, I've been there--and made the same embarrassing mistake. At that point, it is time to cut your losses, regroup, learn from you errors and make yourself the following solemn promise--From now on you will ALWAYS apply this strict rule: NEVER let your feelings for a gf become stronger than her feelings for you, EVEN if it means breaking off the relationship early.

Wally, it took me many years of painful mistakes before I learned this--it is human nature that people want what is hard to get, and they tend to get bored or at least take for granted that which is already in their possession. After you had sex with her the first time (that was the crucial time to set the tone of your future relationship with her), you could have called her the next day and said "Hey, Junko, I had a great time. I hope we can get together again soon." and then don't call again for at least 3 days.

Why? Because you need to make sure you are the one who pulls her heart strings--not vice versa. What happens if she doesn't call you during those 3 days? Hey, that's life. If she cares, she will call. If she doesn't care, you'll know it within the first 2 weeks, rather than 2 years later.

Which is better? You have to make that hard decision.

You are fortunate that you came to this forum, because some guys spend their whole lives and never learn from their mistakes--at least you have the nerve to seek advise.

Good luck to you.

No saying "I love you" seems like a psychological torture to me..

QUOTE=Jagotaro]If a Taiwanese or mainland Chinese or Korean or Filipino (or Japanese) guy tells his gf, "Honey, your so sweet and I love you" the gf is likely to think he has a fever which has affected his brain.
This is one of the subtle and beautiful aspects of Eastern culture--deep feelings being clearly expressed without uttering a single word. After living in Asia for many years, now even I find it odd the way a lot of American couples tell each other "I love you" several times a day. It now seems quite odd. But worse yet, those words may have once had meaning, but if they are overused in that way, do they not tend to become meaningless?QUOTE]


On the other hand... if a Polish or any other European lady never utters the words;" I love you", yet she declares to be your g/f or lover...we Europeans are likely to think she is either heartless or just using you.

This is one of the subtle and beautifull aspects of Western culture--we are not into sadism and psychological torture and abuse.

I certainly don't need to hear "I love you" from my wife every single day...but if I was away I would expect her to write at least "I miss you..." Which she always does in such circumstances. Besides most Westerners do both; they express love both verbally and by showing love.

Love is no poker, its the credit we give our partner

Jagotaro said:

Wally,
there is one more aspect to this problem you had with your gf that clearly goes beyond cultural differences.
I hope you won't take offense, but I'm talking about the basics of how to attract and keep a girl's interest. Many times, gf/bf relationships are a kind of "battle of wits" like a poker game. If you show your "hand" more than your partner does, you could very easily lose.
While you were separated from her--when you reached the point where you became worried about her "true feelings" and you decided that you would ask her straight-out... STOP!!! The game has already gone too far and you have already lost. .

Click to expand...

Quite to the contrary, I wrote to Junko that she had a "stone instead of heart" and that "talking to her (about feelings) is like talking to a wall" because I was not getting any feedback from her on those issues, yet she continued writing letters.

True, she was upset and got furious and acussed me of "trying to possess her" as a result, and she didn't write single letter to me for next 9 moths...but she started writing again...So as you see the game was not exactly over.

I'm just disapointed in her because as it appeared she resumed corespondence, not because she loved me, but she was about to come to States and I was one of the options she wanted to keep...

Besides, my wife is a women also...and we didn't have to play mind games with each other, at least not for long. Sure the trust was being builded up gradually, but she didn't hid much from me...especially her feeling for me, neither did I. Thanks for advice, it was quite insightfull, but I don't agree with you on one thing...Japanese rules aply in Japanese-Japanese relationship, but we are talking about Japanese-westerner relationship here, so there should be mutual understanding...

I agree with Jagotaro, i learned the hard way giving a girlfriend everything just doesnt work, it almost always ends up in a split and a broken man, i learned this the painful way, THREE times before i learned that love is like trust, it has to be earned.

I didnt really love my current girlfriend to begin with, i even began to think i had become incapable of love.
But Eventually through time and deed, she proved to me that i could trust her and love her and it came, because i had taught myself to be VERY careful with my heart, and as Jag said, not give any more then she was.

The problem was wally, you were young, she was young, she wanted sex with a foreigner, you were young and maybe in-experienced and it probably sunk like all your previous relationships....it was just a natural experience of becomming an adult, rarely is there a man or woman who are still with their first partner, the vast majority of people had to experiement and learn and gain experience through trying relationships that ultimately failed, but still gave the person the knowledge and experience to make a proper relationship hold, like you have with your wife.

It was just a learning experience, if you can accept it as such you'll no longer dwell over it of think buts of ifs or why's, just that it happened and it taught you important things for future relationships.

I have no regrets.

nurizeko said:

The problem was Wally, you were young, she was young, she wanted sex with a foreigner, you were young and maybe in-experienced and it probably sunk like all your previous relationships....it was just a natural experience of becomming an adult, rarely is there a man or woman who are still with their first partner, the vast majority of people had to experiement and learn and gain experience through trying relationships that ultimately failed, but still gave the person the knowledge and experience to make a proper relationship hold, like you have with your wife.

Click to expand...

First of all, neither of us was the "first partner"..for the other. She was young being 19 but I was 24...

She actually told me that she regreted she have slept with some other guy before she met me, because she knew I'm the man she wants to be with...

But I have to agree with you I doubted that she our ralationship had a chance to become long term and final, because she was young and propably will change her mind about ther "ideal man" once she turnes into more mature woman.. So I have no regrets.

thats good to hear.