- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
- 113
We are looking for an answer , not a novel...
South Park censored
- Thread starter Emoni
- Start date
Haruspex
先輩
- 30 Aug 2007
- 2,324
- 96
It will have to be a mind-blowing novel, given the preparations.
- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
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Emoni
先輩
- 20 Sep 2003
- 1,779
- 67
- Thread starter
- #79
Honestly, if he hasn't seen the episodes we are talking about, then he should do that first. It's pretty critical to at least watch what the entire conversation and thread is centered around BEFORE stating any opinion (at least if one hopes to be taken seriously)
- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
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Sheeeettttt, you can't even spell his name right. I would have thought that if someone or something was that important to someone, at least they would be able to spell his name right, no matter what language it is in...
How are we going to take you seriously now?
JimmySeal
Tubthumper
- 5 Mar 2006
- 1,516
- 78
Wikipedia said:Muhammad ibn'Abdullāh (Arabic: ﷴ; Transliteration: Muḥammad;[2] pronounced [mʊˈħæmmæd] (listen); also spelled Muhammed or Mohammed)[3][4][5]
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Mycernius
The Hairy Wookie
- 4 Feb 2005
- 4,644
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- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
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Wiki is wrong, I am right. Actually I am always right...JimmySeal; Originally Posted by Wikipedia Muhammad ibn'Abdullāh (Arabic: ﷴ; Transliteration: Muḥammad;[2 said:
Haruspex
先輩
- 30 Aug 2007
- 2,324
- 96
Right. The reason is that you do not understand it and now you're trying to portray me as a fool, but there is a well-known remedy for that: explanation.
When you claim that a certain group of people should not be mocked for whatever reason, you are putting forward a normative statement, whether expressly or impliedly. It is an 'ought statement', much like a command. Now, I can command you to jump into a well, but will you? You probably won't. The reason is that I have nothing, no authority to support my command. I can say God is on my side and hence you should jump into the well, but again, you won't believe me because what I say is outrageous. This is where it all ties in with what you have been contending. Most of us here think the same way of your normative statement to the extent that we should not mock a certain group of people, as you think of the command to jump into the well, whether backed with magic or not. It may be evident to you that it is the right thing not to mock others, but the currently prevalent thinking in the west does not impose morality and values upon people, certainly not as regards their inmost thoughts. Again, I do not believe that I ought not mock groups of religious people and it is your task to establish some sort of support for your normative claims. I am quite weary of your evasive tactics, so I would like to ask the rest of the members to confirm whether what I have written in this comment makes sense or not and if yes, that will be that and you will have to produce a question or risk further corroding your already quite worn credibility as a serious individual, capable of logical and detached thinking.
- 19 May 2007
- 1,716
- 113
Hmmm... so you never intended to answer the questions put forward to you in the first place?
Make sense to me, has done right from the start.
Hezam
Out of Service
- 24 Aug 2007
- 2,543
- 122
I am against "Mock" but not "Criticism"...
And this is the problem,when you allow your people to insult/mock/attack the other people in this planet you surely will be hated and maybe punished and this will put you in isolation from the rest of people.
When you change the Customs just because you don't like it or understand it you won't be welcomed anywhere other than your place and people who think like you think.
The differences between the East and the west is very big,morality is too much important,I just can't imagine how you think !!
I think one reason why Japanese/Korean people can't mix with westerners is because most of westerners forgot the morality and respect.
Respect people as human being if you don't respect their faith or Customs and traditions.
Don't ask them WHY,you can just ignore this part.
You think the freedom of speech is to go live on TV or Radio and start flaming on people ?
Do you even know what it means to people ?
People has many thinks to be proud of,they have alot of things the hold on.
If you have nothing to be proud of then no budy can help,You can't feel like what they feel.
Emoni
先輩
- 20 Sep 2003
- 1,779
- 67
- Thread starter
- #97
I have to say, I kind of understand his point. Especially the first line, and while I generally disagree with you Hezam, and I feel that mocking and satire are a freedom of speech (I'm not saying the person can't be held responsible for their claims, as that is critical to control baseless slander), I kind of understand where you are coming from now.
Again, while I disagree with numerous things, I think that was one of your best posts.
Haruspex
先輩
- 30 Aug 2007
- 2,324
- 96
But there you go, not all people will like you, and I'm not talking about race, ethnicity or religion strictly. With the population and diversity of our plant, you cannot 'champion' a cause and not piss someone off in the process. If we remained silent, we'd be waiting for life to happen, to no avail.
We're not changing the customs. We simply stick to our own and try to do as we've been doing for a while within our own borders. We don't go over to other countries to publish blasphemous literature (deemed blasphemous in said countries) and complain about the sanctions.
Errm, to be absolutely honest the west is pretty tolerant, tolerant towards everyone and especially all opinions and views. The west is characterised by a culture of liberty and self-determination at the cost of security and certainty. Note also that the west places much more emphasis on materialistic interests and these will be preferred over other forms of perceived interests. If you observe accurately, you will see that the west is respectful equally towards all people, until and unless those people threaten or begin to cause material harm.
You will also find that the average western person is moralistic, only it is recognised in the west that morality is inconsistent and very diverse, so the west aims to allow people to play morality and enjoy their game so long as they do not cause harm from a secular perspective. Most members in the Serious Discussion subforum are also quite different from the average person, as the latter will more readily accept values and will do so without much justification and thought, compared to most members on Jref who will not so readily accept arbitrary values. Also, the fact that jref is atheist 'dominated' does not necessarily reflect the state of affairs in the actual world.
Flaming on TV or radio is an aspect of freedom of speech. I have many things that I'm proud of and I am ready to defend them in the same manner that they are challenged. Counter verbal abuse with a verbal riposte, an assailant with physical force and a bunch of lobbyists with the same. Countering verbal attacks with intimidation and a threat of violence is something the mediaeval man would have done and it has no place in western society. Isn't it a bit hypocritical, perhaps, to call for respect and tolerance yet disregard entirely the customs and laws of the west? It certainly is.
Also, I was hoping for a response as to ethics and suchlike, but expecting a policy argument, which you have presented. The thing with policy arguments is that they're grounded in a subjective kind of source, in the current case expediency. With such a source you will never be able to justify violence and threats of violence in the face of verbal attacks, because it will be making policy from the perspective of expediency and no sane society wants to encourage destructive behaviour that is likely to destabilise society. That is simply not in our interest.
