Small question about ぅ

[Davey]

I am getting a bit confused when to use it and when not to use it? Is this something that should just learn for each word, or is there a rule for when to use this?

For example this words use it:

どうぞ
とうきょう
ぎんこう

But why doesn't these words have it:
べんごし
ひと
しごと
りんご

So after the o, ko, go, so, to, no, ho, mo etc. When will there come an う、 behind it? Just something that has been bothering me for a while. :sour:

 

[undrentide]

That's an interesting question.

I don't see there's any particular rule about "u"...
Though you put kana ending with "o" and indeed there are many words in which "u" follows "o", but there are also others which don't.
会う（あう／ａｕ） 買う（かう／ｋａｕ） 綯う（なう／ｎａｕ） 這う（はう／ｈａｕ） 舞う（まう／ｍａｕ）
言う（いう／ｉｕ）
食う（くう／ｋｕｕ） 吸う（すうｓｕｕ） 縫う（ぬうｎｕｕ） 結う（ゆうｙｕｕ）
追う（おう／ｏｕ） 乞う（こう／ｋｏｕ） 沿う（そう／ｓｏｕ） 問う（とう／ｔｏｕ） 酔う（よう／ｙｏｕ）
I listed kun-yomi words only because most on-yomi words were imported from Chinese language. When thinking about the words using "u", many of them are on-yomi of kanji, so there might be (or used to be) some rules in Chinese language. I have no idea how close or different the on-yomi of kanji in Japanese and pronunciation of modern Chinese language.
At first I thought it might have something to do with 母音調和 (vowel harmony) but as far as modern Japanese is concerned, there isn't much evidence of it.
Vowel harmony - Wikipedia
母音調和 - Wikipedia

 

[JimmySeal]

This question is tantamount to asking "When does the letter E occur after I in an English word?" the answer, of course, is, "When it does."

う after お,こ,そ,と,の,... means that the o is elongated. In other words, こうし is pronounced differently from こし. It's as simple as that. There's no rule to learn.

 

[Davey]

Thanks you guys that is all I needed to know, I just got confused many times, and was wondering if there was a rule for it.

 

[Mike Cash]

It's there when it's part of the word, and it is to be pronounced.
One problem common among learners of Japanese I have known is a tendency to ignore elongated vowels and the small ッ when pronouncing Japanese words. Perhaps thinking they sound silly, or perhaps thinking they're not important for being understood. Trust me, they're important.

Here's a little tongue-twister I devised which does (I think) a wonderful job of pointing out their importance:

一昨日夫の弟のオトトの嘔吐の音を聞いた。

In kana:

おととい おっと の おとうと の おとと の おうと の おと を きいた。

In romaji:

Ototoi otto no otouto no ototo no outo no oto o kiita.

Translation:

The day before yesterday I heard the sound of my husband's younger brother's fish throwing up.

おとうと = younger brother
おとと = fish

おっと = husband
おと = sound

おうと = throwing up (vomit)
おと = sound

If you ignore the elongated vowels and the small ッ, you get:

おととい おと の おとと の おとと の おと の おと を きいた。

The day before yesterday I heard the sound of the sound of the fish of the fish throwing up.

See the difference? One, while absurd, at least makes sense. The other is absurd and makes no sense.

 

[Mike Cash]

Bumping because that was entirely too much typing of useful information to go totally ignored like this.

 

[Davey]

I tried the tonque twister with my wife, but she told me that おとと, does not mean fish (or maybe I have said it wrong...)

I agree that I sometimes forget to pronounce the little う, but maybe is that because I don't know how to pronounce it good, or think it is not important, arigato Mike for your advice, I will think about that little thing a bit more.

 

[Glenn]

The little う? It's pronounced the same as the big one.

 

[PaulTB]

The little う? It's pronounced the same as the big one. :?

The little ぅ is used in approximately three ways.

1. To depict the English 'tu' / 'du' sound (e.g. in 外来語).

ゼロという概念はヒンドゥー文化に由来している。
The concept of zero sprang from the Hindu culture.

私は、メドゥーサが好き。 I like Medusa.

2. To depict (an extra) 'half-a-mora'

ずぅっと一緒ぅ (Same as ずっと一緒 only with somewhat enlongated vowel sounds).

3. When ryitin 133t (/ stupid).

どぅぞぉ願ぃＵます！！

I think the original poster of this thread was not talking about the 'little ぅ' he was just confused with using う as a normal '1 mora' vowel enlongation.

 

[Mike Cash]

I tried the tonque twister with my wife, but she told me that おとと, does not means fish (or maybe I have said it wrong...)

It may be regional or not common for some other reason. Show her the google images in the link below and see if that sparks recognition on her part.

オトト - Google 検索

 

[PaulTB]

It may be regional or not common for some other reason.

Seems likely, it wasn't in 大辞林 or 広辞苑.
A-ha. It's a variation on とと which _is_ in the dictionaries. I've no idea how often とと / トト is used as it's a pain to Google count.

とと is stated to be 幼児語 but I have a little doubt about the status of オトト in that way.

 

[undrentide]

とと is 幼児語 for 魚, and often used with お, to my knowledge.
(Maybe I should say it used to be used often with お, as it does not seem to be used so often now?)

新明解国語辞典 states as follows:
とと 《魚》 「さかな」の幼児語。［お━・きん━］

 

[Glenn]

The little ぅ is used in approximately three ways.

1. To depict the English 'tu' / 'du' sound (e.g. in 外来語).

ゼロという概念はヒンドゥー文化に由来している。
The concept of zero sprang from the Hindu culture.

私は、メドゥーサが好き。 I like Medusa.

2. To depict (an extra) 'half-a-mora'

ずぅっと一緒ぅ (Same as ずっと一緒 only with somewhat enlongated vowel sounds).

3. When ryitin 133t (/ stupid).

どぅぞぉ願ぃＵます！！

I think the original poster of this thread was not talking about the 'little ぅ' he was just confused with using う as a normal '1 mora' vowel enlongation.

Yes, and it's pronounced the same as the big one, the only slightly special case being the トゥ in foreign words example. I was just saying that it's not really worth differentiating the size (with that one exception), as the pronunciation doesn't change based on the size.

 

[JimmySeal]

I don't think Dutch Baka was talking about ぅ anyway. I think he just meant little as in "seemingly insignificant."

 

[Glenn]

Haha, that's highly likely.

 

[J44xm]

That's a great example sentence, Mike Cash. I've learned as well that you can't be worried about sounding ridiculous, as something like "ridiculous" is wildly subjective. What sounds silly to the English speaker sounds like natural Japanese to a Japanese speaker. Thanks for the reminder (and the sentence).

Update: For no reason, I decided to take a peek at my very first posts here at JRef and found an old thread in which I posted an audio file of myself speaking Japanese and asked for feedback. And what was one of the things I was told? To watch my mora length. (Glenn was one of those who helped me out too. いろいろお世話になっています！頭が上がりません。)