Sexuality

[karlyboo]

scorpion da black- Those are some pretty serious views you have going on there. If I may, I would be interested to explore a couple of those thoughts.

You have made noises about accepting people doing their own thing, as long as it does not harm you in any way. That's fine and dandy. I myself am bisexual and can honestly say that given some of the views I have heard out in the wide world, I'm happy to accept that as a good compromise. You don't like it but you're happy to ignore it as long as I afford you the same.

There are however some interesting justifications and opinions elsewhere which don't come across as quite so equitable:

as for my opinion about not accpeting gays, well it is my opinion and you have to respect it as i respect yours....

I'd argue that's not even slightly true. You can respect a person and that person's right to have an opinion but you do not have to respect their opinion itself. The Ku Klux Klan are entitled to have an opinion but I'm under no obligation to respect the actual contents of that opinion.

you cant stereotype me as ignorant or arrogant...
this a point of view....whether i am pro-homosexuality, or not it is my view..

Again we come back to a person's thoughts being something immune from question. Yes, your view is your view- that does not automatically disallow interpretations of that view as being resolved to ignorant or arrogant.

and tokis i told you i hate the word homophobia...fear has nothing to do with shaping my believe.

And fear is also only one leg of the definition of the word. It is defined as being intolerance, aversion or fear of homosexuals (any dictionary, I used dictionary.com for a sample). Why is the concept of being afraid of homosexuals of such importance? This seems to be a recurring theme since it's not the first time you've mentioned it.

my believe isnt even based on religion alone...it is instinctal feeling that is explained as rejection to the idea of homosexuality..
it is that feeling every human has of right and wrong...instinctal conciense...same feeling any human will feel against steeling or killing.

I find the equating homosexuality to murder and theft offensive, but your point is seen.

What I find of interest (and the reason I'm dropping into the topic) is the assertion that your views are immutable and not open to question (and therefore anybody questioning them is intolerant and lacking in respect for your views) and that these views are in any case 'instinctive' (which sounds like a method to excuse 'negative' characteristics based on the factors beyond your control).

It's similar to discussions I've had with some extreme Christians who defined their stance on homosexuality with terms invoking God and God's will, which boils down to an abdication of higher reasoning: "I'm not a bigot, my God is!" so in this case: "I'm not ignorant, my instincts are!"

I've explored this before with several individuals and always found the answers intriguing so I would very much like to do something similar. Tell me about this feeling. I have no particular interest in labelling you arrogant or ignorant (it's unlikely to change anything), I have an interest in logic and reasoning. I wish to know your reasoning, and I believe I can learn that by hearing more of your feelings.

What feelings do you get around homosexuals? Do you need to know somebody is homosexual to have these feelings or do you get them around others also? How do these feelings manifest, what do they feel like? Are they only applicable to male homosexuality?

I come over as very confrontational but don't let that concern you, I'm simply forthright (with a certain sarcastic turn of phrase).

The very wise Mars Man has already disassembled your assertions that being gay is unnatural/against nature and others have commented that the sole purpose of their existence is not procreation (I tend to belong to the school of thought that the orphanages are already quite full enough and there are enough starving children in the world without the sole purpose of a relationship being defined as to further exacerbate these issues). There's nothing I can add to that. :122:

It's also interesting that the few posts with an issue against homosexuality have seemingly made points only against male homosexuality, either by referring to effeminacy in men ("fluffy clothing", "his perfume" etc.) or by use of words like 'gay(s)'. Am I to take it that female homosexuality is either perfectly acceptable, non-existent or not worth talking about?
Well, that was pretentious for only my second post. Sexuality (and the often inexplicably strong feelings of disgust it arouses in some individuals I have known) is something that for obvious reasons I have spent a long time trying to understand and comprehend and have become rather adept at discussing, I appreciate it may come over as aggressive. It's not intended to be.

Edited for my atrocious grammar.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

and tokis i told you i hate the word homophobia...fear has nothing to do with shaping my believe.
my believe isnt even based on religion alone...it is instinctal feeling that is explained as rejection to the idea of homosexuality..
it is that feeling every human has of right and wrong...instinctal conciense...same feeling any human will feel against steeling or killing.
i have no problem in being called a bad person about this particular matter for not accpeting homos....
because my view will not change.

All i have done is told you what i strongly believe about and questioned why you believe what you believe.
At the end of the day i will have to accept the fact that you have opinions that i may or may not agree with, 'tis a fact of life, but that doesn't mean i will agree with what you say (especially since i do not find your reasons a convincing arguement for me to change my opinions about subjects like homosexuality).


But in my opinion i do think you should seriously re-evaluate how you form your opinions, you base your opinions on gays on your basic instincts but then you go on about humanity- how can you even judge humanity when you base your opinions about people on instincts and feelings alone? How is that posibly rising above the way animals view the world? What happened to thoroughly thinking through things like why exactly you feel the way you do? There is a reason for everything. IMHO it is not good to act on feelings and instincts alone if enlightenment or self-improvement/progress is important to you.
Perhaps you are stuck in your beliefs, perhaps you are not, maybe you refuse to consider changing what you believe in, only you can know- maybe what i have said on this thread has only reinforced your gay-hate beliefs, maybe it hasn't, but if anything i have said to you has got through to you for better or for worse, i would like to discuss it.

plus guys stop refering to me as a fascist ...
i have travelled many times...and i have met a lot of gay guys...and it is not like i carried a crusade against them and killed them or any thing...i minded my own bussines and they minded theirs. at one occasion a gay man tried to ask me out and he said he finds me attractive...i didnt lash out at him, but very politely said " i am sorry, i dont mean to insult you, but i am not that kind of person"
having met gays doesnt mean accepting them........i will always be against the idea...
but it is not like i would be an uncivil person because of it

Well at least that is good to know you can at least be civil around gays, but i still think you should think deeply about the imaginary scenario i gave you to answer, because although what you do in your life is no real concern of mine, i would like it if you tried to experience different ways of viewing the world/thinking. I cannot deny that the topic of homosexuality is one i feel strongly about.

 

[Haruspex]

Tokis is right, the fact that you refuse to imagine the scenario means that your beliefs are not open for discussion, and if you state that you don't wish your views to be discussed, rather you want them to simply accept the excuse that they must respect it because they must, yet you are clearly eager to discuss others' views of the same matter. Please choose an option, either you let your views to be discussed, torn apart and analyzed just like any other philosophy would be discussed here on these boards, or you don't discuss it at all.

 

[scorpion da black]

i have explained my self quit well, i think.
if you refer to my previous posts...plus when karly boo san mentioned anti homosexuality as only against gay men, that is not true...i am just as against gay women (lesbians) as well.
the idea of same sex intercourse is a one that i find wierd.

and karly boo san
you asked me to explain what kind of feeling i have when i meet some gays or discus about them or happen to face them. i will do that with honesty ( no insult what so ever is ment .......it is just honestyabout emotions i have
i feel disgust, wierdness, pitty for their sitiuation as if it is a diseas that made them abnormal, some times arrogant as if they are some lower life form, when meeting gay men i feel like they are lesser men and weak, as for women i feel like what a waste if they were hot ....

and about what you said tokis chan...
i have read plenty about this matter...i have even put my self in their postion...
imagining how sad it is to have an urge that cant be had. how sad to fight for acceptance...
and even then i couldnt find any sympathy towards their cause...and chose not to accept them.

please for new comers read all i had to say before replying to me

again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??

but that is an excuse i use to satisfy your question...i dont mind what my tradition or culture ..etc say about this matter.
this choice i made by my self due to feelings i have in me...some of which i mentioned just now.

 

[Haruspex]

If being normal means to detest all that is rare and unusual, I want to be the sickest f**k out there. Normally, normal people regard a defect as a flaw, but hey, its not necessarily true. Don't you get bored of all the normal things in life? Don't you want to kick life in the ribs to make it stray from its original course? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to promote homosexuality as I find it weird myself, but you see, with a smile lol. Im not a hedonist or epicurean either, but I think we don't have the luxury to worry about a group of people (homosexual folks) who never done anything against us, and never will as a group. Its like jumping on a random person on the streets and telling him "Starting from this second you're my enemy, in the name of "this and that" DIE!"
Another interesting question, you say you wouldn't befriend a gay person... what if you already did? What if you have a gay friend who just doesn't, or rather daren't tell you about it? Don't tell me that its out of the question since you never know. Just what would you do?

 

[scorpion da black]

mmmmmmmmmmmm, this is a tough one....
but wouldnt i notice??
in most sitiuations, arent gay men more feminine and have some noticable behavior that normel men dont do?

lets say, what you say happened...i am afraid my frendship with him will just be "hi hello and bye"...but not as close as before, or lets go hunting, or how about you come over invite the palls and play poker...etc

 

[Haruspex]

You wouldn't notice probably, most gay people don't go around saying that they're homosexual, and the thin, fragile, feminine kinda homosexual person is just a stereotype.

 

[scorpion da black]

well maybe you have met more homos , as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.
but you got my answer

 

[Davey]

When I was a teenager this subject came up, and I have been thinking about it (by imaging) what do I like. It was pretty easy for me to came to the conclusion I like the female way more than the male. I do think some men can be beautiful, but it's more that I think I wish I would look like that or will look like that.

Then talking about the people around me.

My parents divorced when I was 13, and about 2 years later my mother wanted to talk to us. She didn't wanted to shock us by saying she was a lesbian so she told us first that she is a Bi-sexual. Of course we were shocked, but at that moment my brother and I only hoped for my mother to be happy again. So I excepted it, even though it felt a bit strange the first time a women came over and slept together with my mother... Well, I was pretty angry at that moment but I got used to it. My mother have had a couple of girlfriends before she got married with Carolien about 2 years ago.

I see her as my second mom, and do not care if they are lesbian. In fact I can't image any man together with my mom. I am happy for her, and she seems way happier than in the past (sorry dad).

I have nothing against gay people, I myself even had some offers... (which I politely refused). I only do not like the people that are showing it a bit too much... those leather gay people. Go ahead, but I do not feel comfortable if they are near me.

The same goes for other people whom are showing it too much as well, not only gay.

Anyway, I hope that Gay people will be seen more equally in the upcoming years, even though it still has a long way too go.

(does anyone know some articles about Gays in Japan, I would like to send some stuff to my mother... if you have some could you please PM them to me.)

 

[Mars Man]

as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.

This is a major oxymoron--what sense is there in setting up a law against something over which human society has so very, very little control?

In Iran, some sex changes have been allowed (I'll tag on the source in an edit later, I'm in a rush at the moment) so why should there be a law against it in Lebanon?

 

[karlyboo]

again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??

Do you believe everything your religion, culture and upbringing told you?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

You wouldn't notice probably, most gay people don't go around saying that they're homosexual, and the thin, fragile, feminine kinda homosexual person is just a stereotype.

Yep it is a complete stereotype, you do get some guys which are very stereotypically gay ( for example over here in England there is a famous tv host guy called Graham Norton who is very popular but is also quite stereotypically gay), but you'd also be very suprised about some guys.

One of my best friends is gay, one day i went over to his house but he hadn't finished getting ready for us to go out and was still sitting down at his computer. He was on a gay dating website and as i sat down next to the computer to wait for him to finish getting ready i glanced at the website he was on. Really to be honest, there were a lot of guys pictures and profiles on the site and a large majority of them didn't look gay at all, they just looked like the guy next door, the guy who works in the bank, the postman, the salaryman guy etc- so really at the end of the day almost any stranger guy could be gay.

well maybe you have met more homos , as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.
but you got my answer

Do you believe everything your religion, culture and upbringing told you?

For Scorpian man the answer is probably "yes", but even though i don't agree with his opinions, at the end of the day i do respect him for at least being honest and open about the way he feels- you get a lot of people now days that aren't so truthful about what they really think when it comes to stuff like this, so even though i disagree with his opinions, i am thankful that he can be so open and truthful about the way he feels/his opinions .

 

[Haruspex]

Homosexuality being illegal, now thats another interesting question. How do you do that? Say, you've got a gay dog, what do you with it? Hand the poor bastard over to the police? Outlawing homosexual people lol, the Forest of Menwood, the Manly Men and Maid Melvin. Its fun how humans work, in most cases they detest stuff that differs from the usual, but never when they benefit from it. Just imagine if cows had two udders and double the milk no one would complain that they're unethical, but if they simply had two udders, without the additional milk they'd soon blame it on GMO, aliens, farmers mating with their cows, geological anomaly's, doomsday, apocalypse, satan and pretty much anything and everything negative.
We might not notice it, but mankind is pretty much a grotesque display, how fun we are, aren't we?

 

[scorpion da black]

i have explained my self quit well, i think.
if you refer to my previous posts...plus when karly boo san mentioned anti homosexuality as only against gay men, that is not true...i am just as against gay women (lesbians) as well.
the idea of same sex intercourse is a one that i find wierd.
and karly boo san
you asked me to explain what kind of feeling i have when i meet some gays or discus about them or happen to face them. i will do that with honesty ( no insult what so ever is ment .......it is just honestyabout emotions i have
i feel disgust, wierdness, pitty for their sitiuation as if it is a diseas that made them abnormal, some times arrogant as if they are some lower life form, when meeting gay men i feel like they are lesser men and weak, as for women i feel like what a waste if they were hot ....
and about what you said tokis chan...
i have read plenty about this matter...i have even put my self in their postion...
imagining how sad it is to have an urge that cant be had. how sad to fight for acceptance...
and even then i couldnt find any sympathy towards their cause...and chose not to accept them.
please for new comers read all i had to say before replying to me
again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??
but that is an excuse i use to satisfy your question...i dont mind what my tradition or culture ..etc say about this matter.
this choice i made by my self due to feelings i have in me...some of which i mentioned just now.

i am quoting my self....
karly boo san read what i said after that sentence you quoted from me..you will get my answer.

tokis chan
thank you for being so understanding .... at least around people like your self i can express my self with out having to worry about negativity.

and about homosexuality being illegal..
well, that is true.
mars man san when transexuality happens and allowed in Iran or other Islamic nations it is very rare; and that happens when mainly a person has a mutation and has a part male and a part female organs...
so doctors compare which organs are dominant (the male or female) and on that the gender is decided...
not that homosexuality among normal biological men is allowed...
transexuality in special cases has nothing to do with homosexuality in all cases.

and derfel san
remember when i said i will even be against homosexuality ever being legal ...
did you think i was bluffing??
didnt you realize from that sentence that homosexuality is illegal??

it helps on keeping them off the streets so that the community wouldn't get used to have them...and it helps to give homos a reason to avoid ever showing them selves.
plus locking up a homosexual in a prison full of men is maybe a haven for him ( perhaps he will even thank law makers. )
sorry for being sarcastic..i was just lightening the atmosphere

 

[Haruspex]

and derfel san
remember when i said i will even be against homosexuality ever being legal ...
did you think i was bluffing??
didnt you realize from that sentence that homosexuality is illegal??
it helps on keeping them off the streets so that the community wouldn't get used to have them...and it helps to give homos a reason to avoid ever showing them selves.
plus locking up a homosexual in a prison full of men is maybe a haven for him ( perhaps he will even thank law makers. )
sorry for being sarcastic..i was just lightening the atmosphere

That might be the case, which I can not deny, but inevitably as time goes those regulations will eventually lighten and someday get abolished.

 

[MummyMia]

shouldn't one question be how can you make a feeling illegal? me and my partner are both bisexual, my 14yr old is at that stage in life where she does not know what she wants but she knows that no matter what happens both me and her step-dad are behind her 100%. why should gay or bisesuals have to hide, they are people at the end of the day. people who think, feel and live just the same as everyone else. what does it matter what they do in their private lives? There are people out there who enjoy self harming and all sorts of weird sexual activities, but personally so long as they dont expect me to join in they can do what they want!!!!

 

[karlyboo]

karly boo san read what i said after that sentence you quoted from me..you will get my answer.

Fair enough, you obviously don't want to discuss it further.

at least around people like your self i can express my self with out having to worry about negativity.

Given the amount of negativity you obviously feel for a large group of diverse individuals based on one characteristic, I hope the irony of that statement isn't being lost... perhaps this might help your perceptions however-

(On a slight tangent, following on from some of the comments above) the way homosexuals are presented in the media is pretty bizarre IMO. Considering you only find out most people are homosexual when they happen to observe that their partner/love interest is of the same gender I've never really understood why television (in particular) has to wrap all gay men up as effeminate weirdos and all lesbians as doc-martin wearing auto mechanics. I think it's something to do with a safety zone for the viewer- that is what people expect and tolerate as an accepted representation of homosexuality. The idea that homosexuals in general look and act like everyone else might (presumably) come as a bit of a shock.

Will and Grace did a clever piece of writing with this, making the lead male character a normal guy (who happened to be homosexual) but balancing that for the viewer's sake with an extremely loud-and-proud homosexual stereotype friend. They succeeded in representing something for closer to what most gay men are like without shaking the viewer's established perceptions.

Some of the first pictures of homosexual marriages marriages were very telling in this regard IMO- they were all normal looking couples, usually in their late 30's or early 40's who could have been anybody. Absolutely anybody. They just happened to both be the same gender.

To be frank for all the people out there who dislike Pride marches based on the sheer outlandishness and flamboyance of some of the participants, I agree. There are some (mostly men) I've met who I've honestly thought would benefit well from a dry slap and a good lecture about not acting like a freak based solely on the one personal trait of their sexuality.

I think, again, its something to do with a safety zone. The adoption of overtly flamboyant and extreme mannerisms as a way to protect the actual person inside, a sort of mask if you will. Hiding your emotions when you feel often that you may be judged or treated badly if you reveal them, which also leads to the emotional detachment I've noticed (again, in some men) leading them to become rather shallow.

The stereotype isn't helped when some individuals feel so much that they are made into a martyr on the basis of their sexuality that they feel the need to identify every part of their lives with it and play up to the stereotype because it's how they identify themselves. In a similar way that you can't have a conversation with some passionate vegetarians without animal rights cropping up at some point, there are some people who define everything by their sexuality and (naturally) it gets rather frustrating to have that flagged up at every opportunity.

That's only in my experience. As I said, loud and effeminate men often come over as obnoxious IMO (although that's not restricted to homosexuals, I've met many straight men who satisfy the same criteria). However the vast majority of homosexuals don't belong to that niche in my experience.

Although I've less experience of the 'scene', all the lesbians I have met are the same. They were all normal, not a dungaree or shaved head in sight.

Apologies for the slight diversion in topic.

EDIT- well said, MummyMia.

 

[Mars Man]

mars man san when transexuality happens and allowed in Iran or other Islamic nations it is very rare; and that happens when mainly a person has a mutation and has a part male and a part female organs...

The problem here, however, is that sex is very much in the brain ! This is a very well established understanding. For that reason, there is the biological sex and the genetical sex, and the two can differ in some small ways, and sometimes if some very big ways.

not that homosexuality among normal biological men is allowed...
transexuality in special cases has nothing to do with homosexuality in all cases.

There may be some problem here with the logic. Could I get you to rephrase this please. As it is, I could take it as saying that no case of transsexual operation or orientation has any relation to being homosexual, which again is very wrong. A person whose brain sex and body sex (biological and genetical respectively) are so different that they desire to perform surgery to change their genetical sex state (thus transexual) is homosexual, in that they are born with one physical sex organ which does not match their brain sex.

Therefore, all transsexuals are homosexuals by nature, so being homosexual has everything to do with being transsexual.

For that reason, if it is, actually, illegal to be homosexual, then the legal system is saying that it's illegal to be human !! It really boils down to that, because it is a matter of nature...few actually chose or make that brain change, it just happens in the womb.

 

[Haruspex]

This homosexual thing is an ethical paradox.
Normally it is accepted and encouraged to help people with "issues" whether its a mental illness, addiction, a simple bad habit, an annoying habit or feat, starting from the worst to the most mundane issue. Homosexuality in itself is not something good or bad, but our society's judgment's and prejudices pretty much turn it into a handicap. So, im thinking, if they're living with a handicap, even if its a light one, why are they hated?
Its the will of all natural things? Screw nature! If thats the case why not rush to the woods, get rid of our cloths and cover our genitals with leaves whilst singing, dancing and watching the beauties of creation.
The will of religion and religious philosophy? All of it was made people, it was necessary, once, long ago, and I could say its presence is still necessary to this day, but one shouldn't adjust his life to follow religion as it stands in the step-by-step guide for radicalism. Its more about maintaining peace, a fragile peace yeah, since we're humans, but still religion should stay behind people's back's to help them when necessary.
The way things are? Yet again a question of nature.
In this world we live in, there isn't a SINGLE unnatural thing. Anything and everything in any and every shape is natural, they're natural because they're positive (im using the meaning "fact" here instead of "good"). They undeniable, you can struggle as much as you want, you will never see and never build or make anything unnatural, simply because all that exists here in the cosmos is completely unrestricted, you can use it how you wish, and substance can resist how it can. Sure you can't venture into the space to bring back some acid from the Venus, but thats not because doing it would be unnatural, its simply because we didn't make something that could accomplish it yet. Not because its forbidden and there's a restriction on it, but simply because we didn't spend enough time working on it yet.
I don't know if God exists, although I wish to believe that he does, but raise your face to the sky, really, the cosmos is unbelievable. We're such weak beings, you could even say pathetic. Now do we have the right to pass judgment on anything? Do we have the right to label anything as good or bad?

 

[scorpion da black]

i agree with Derfel....and yet disagree in some points.
although it is true that societies label all matters as acceptable and non acceptable..
we have our sense of right and wrong, every human does, and that doesnt change from one nation to another...one culture or the other.

labeling soemthing wrong isnt only related to how our culture refers to what is ethical...

 

[Haruspex]

we have our sense of right and wrong, every human does, and that doesnt change from one nation to another...one culture or the other.
labeling soemthing wrong isnt only related to how our culture refers to what is ethical...

Yes yes, but thats all in our head, life itself is natural, neutral, subjective and positive (yet again as a fact).
Our personality, our merits and flaws are how we interpret it.

 

[scorpion da black]

that makes more sense now

 

[yumeitsumo]

I hate it when people make fun and joke gay/bi people. Nothing is wrong with those feelings. People can't help how they feel about others. Love is unexplainable! I am in love with my best friend. Does that make me bi?

 

[Haruspex]

Not make fun of it? I refuse! Im not asking them to respect my sexual views either. Sexuality is such a minor detail, it means nothing, so it shouldn't be taken that damn seriously.

 

[karlyboo]

Not make fun of it? I refuse! Im not asking them to respect my sexual views either. Sexuality is such a minor detail, it means nothing, so it shouldn't be taken that damn seriously.

Like most jokes, it depends how far you take it and how well you know the person you're poking fun at. A close friend making a personal joke is generally fine, rather than walking up to some random chap on the street and doing it. Although the latter is probably a good way to lose a few teeth.