Sentences with a relative clause

[hirashin]

Dear native English speakers,

Would you check my sentences with a relative clause?

(a) The white building which stands on the hill is an old castle.
(b) Italy is the country (that / which) I want to visit most.
(c) I love people who live in this country.
(d) I know some Americans who learn Japanese.
(e) This is the camera I bought last month.
(f) Paris is the city my son lives in.
(g) I know some people who live in the city/town.
(h) That is the bike (that / which) I bought yesterday.
(i) The food (that / which) I want to eat most is sushi.
(j) The cake my mother made for us last Sunday was delicious.
(k) The/That American who knows a little Japanese helped me.

Thanks in advance.

Hirashin

 

[ewww]

Ok, looks like everybody is celebratin' FOWDA-day. I'll make my try here.



(a) You better use 'that' instead 'which', because set of houses
is restricted to that one

The white building that stands on the hill is an old castle.

(b) 'which' is more suitable here, You are just adding some additional
non-important information.

Italy is the country which I want to visit most.

(c) good
(d) good
(e) good
(f) good
(g) I think it is good for both city and town.

(h) You should use which like in #b

That is the bike (that / which) I bought yesterday.

(i) Use that, because You are narrowing results of query 'select * from food'

The food that I want to eat most is sushi.

(j) good

(k) In that case both are good, but it depends on context of using. For example,
You should use 'that' if You are meaning some particular american. You may use 'the'
if You just tellin' 'bout some abstract american, who helped You.

The/That American who knows a little Japanese helped me.

Stay in cool place.

 

[ClarkH]

a - Fine.
b - Both are fine, but "that" sounds more natural.
c - Perfect. I can't think of an alternate simple way to say this. (i.e., there is no good substitute for "who" in this sentence.)
d - I know some Americans who are learning Japanese.
e - Perfect omission of which/that.
f - I try to avoid ending sentences with prepositions, although many people say it this way, so it sounds natural. I think it sounds better to say, "Paris is where my son lives," or "Paris is the city where my son lives."
g - Perfect. You could also use "that" interchangeably.
h - Either are fine.
i - I think this sentence sounds much better by omitting that/which. "The food I want to eat most is sushi."
j - Perfect.
k - These sentneces have slightly different meaning. When you say "That American," you are identifying a specific person that the listener should know. For example, maybe that American is in the same room as you at the time. If you say "The American," it is still specific, but the American is probably not so close. Maybe he's somebody that goes to your school that you haven't seen for a few days. If I am correct about Japanese, I think it is similar to the difference between この and これ.

 

[hirashin]

Thank you for your help, Clark.

I have some further questions.

You have used the progressive tense for (d). Do you mean the
original (d) sentence sounds unnatural?
My version : I know some Americans who learn Japanese.
Your version : I know some Americans who are learning Japanese.

I thought you could say both "They learn Japanese" and "They are learning
Japanese" though the two sentences don't have exactly the same meaning.

k - These sentneces have slightly different meaning. When you say "That American," you are identifying a specific person that the listener should know. For example, maybe that American is in the same room as you at the time. If you say "The American," it is still specific, but the American is probably not so close. Maybe he's somebody that goes to your school that you haven't seen for a few days. If I am correct about Japanese, I think it is similar to the difference between この and これ.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Both この and これ are translated into "this". "That American" should be あのアメリカ人.
"The" is a tough word for Japanese to use. It does not have an equivalent in Japanese.

By the way, are you learning Japanese on your own, Clark?

About (c) and (g), can you also say " I love people living in this country" and
"I know some people living in the city/town."?

Hirashin

 

[ClarkH]

Hi Hirashin,

d - Yes, it sounds unnatural, but it doesn't sound incorrect. It might be something unique about the word "learn". For example, saying "I know some Americans who study Japanese," sounds very natural. Also, it sounds very natural to say, "I know some Americans who are studying Japanese." It's confusing. To me, it just sounds unnatural to say, "they learn Japanese."

I'm using a Japanese tutor (日本人) for 1 hour each week. Between our lessons, I study on my own with the book I use with my tutor.

c - "I love people living in this country." It sounds less natural. I wouldn't use this sentence. I would only say, "I love people who/that live in this country."

g - Same here. "I know some people living in the city," doesn't sound natural. I would only say, "I know some people who/that live in the city."

Clark

 

[hirashin]

Thanks for your help, Clark.

Hi Hirashin,
d - Yes, it sounds unnatural, but it doesn't sound incorrect. It might be something unique about the word "learn". For example, saying "I know some Americans who study Japanese," sounds very natural. Also, it sounds very natural to say, "I know some Americans who are studying Japanese." It's confusing. To me, it just sounds unnatural to say, "they learn Japanese."

So you can't use "learn" in the simple present tense, can you?
How about this one in the question form?
(1) Do you learn Japanese on your own?

Do you think I should say (2) instead?
(2) Are you learning Japanese on your own?

I'm using a Japanese tutor (日本人) for 1 hour each week. Between our lessons, I study on my own with the book I use with my tutor.

How long have you been learning the language? Do you have any plans to come to Japan ?

c - "I love people living in this country." It sounds less natural. I wouldn't use this sentence. I would only say, "I love people who/that live in this country."

How about this one with "the"?
(3) I love the people living in this country.

Would the following sentences sound unnatural?

"I had lived in Nepal for twenty years until two years ago.
I love the people who live in the country. (or living in the country.)"

Hirashin

 

[ClarkH]

"Do you learn Japanese on your own?" I would never say this. It sounds very strange and unnatural, though it may be technically correct. Absolutely I think you should say, "are you learning Japanese on your own?" for present tense. Or you could say, "do you study Japanese on your own?"

Learn sounds very natural for past tense though. For example, "did you learn Japanese on your own?" sounds prefect.

I became interested in learning Japanese more than five years ago, but I didn't spend much time studying. I used Rosetta Stone for many weeks, but I did not have enough time to dedicate to Japanese because of college and work. Recently though, I've had more free time, so I decided to study again, using a different approach. I was unhappy with Rosetta Stone because it was not teaching me simple conversation quickly. I am planning a trip to Japan for 3 weeks after Christmas later this year. So, I want to be able to have simple conversations, like asking for directions, ordering food, introducing myself, etc. Rosetta Stone could not teach me that quickly, so I hired a tutor. I'm planning to visit Tokyo and Kyoto , your city. I want to see many gardens, parks, castles, shrines, and onsen!

"I love the people living in this country." It sounds much better! Quite natural! You could say that. I think it would sound better to say, "I love the people that are living in this country," but either sentence sounds good.

"I had lived in Nepal for twenty years until two years ago. I love the people who live in the country. (or living in the country.)" I would replace "the country" with "that country". So, "I love the people living in that country." Besides that, your sentences sound pretty natural and good. Still, I'll suggest some improvements. I try to omit as many words as possible when speaking or writing. So, I would say this instead: "I lived in Nepal for twenty years, until two years ago." (take out the word "had") Since you say "lived," which is past tense, it implies that it is something you "had" done, so you can omit that word.

Clark

 

[hirashin]

Thank you for your further help, Clark.

OK. I'll avoid using "learn" in the simple present tense from now on.

By the way,
I'd like to give you some advice to make yourself understood in Japanese.

English speaking people tend to say each word with a stress. Like
oHAyou goZAImasu. It would sound very unnatural and make
your Japanese hard to understand. When you speak Japanese,
you should say each word monotonously.

Thank you.

Hirashin

 

[Mike Cash]

An exaggerated version of that is what you hear when Japanese people mock foreigners' spoken Japanese. (Yes...despite the common impression that Japanese uniformly praise all efforts by foreigners to speak Japanese, mocking does happen).

 

[ClarkH]

Thank you for the advice. My tutor tends to work with me more on vocabulary, grammar, and expressions, but she does correct my pronunciation from time to time. However, she's never told me about speaking monotonously. I will try my best. Actually, it's my impression that Japanese, in general, dislike and mock foreigners, but are still polite (e.g., praise their efforts) when dealing with them.

 

[hirashin]

Occasionally, mocking foreign accents can be seen on TV here. In most cases
the people who do such a thing do not seem to intend to make fools of foreign
people.


You should not mock foreign people to make fools of them, but mocking
foreigners can be helpful to learn the language the foreigners speak.

If you want your Japanese to sound better, you should mock the way Japanese
people speak Japanese.


Hirashin

 

[Mike Cash]

"Mimic"......not "mock".

 

[hirashin]

Oh, is that so? Thanks for the correction, Mike.

So should I say like this?
If you want your Japanese to sound better, you should mimic the way Japanese
people speak Japanese.

Or should I correct all the other "mock"s?

Hirashin

Hirashin

 

[OoTmaster]

I'm sure they just meant the last one. Mock usually means to mimic in a way that makes fun of a person. While mimic is to try and copy a person exactly. As for that and the I can probably help a little with the differences. Usually that refers to something specific that you have mentioned earlier. While the is a general term and doesn't always specify a certain person or thing. For an example. If you said the sentence, "I talked to Bob the other day in Japanese. That person also helped me to learn some English." In this case that refers to Bob who you mentioned in a previous sentence. While the usually in that context would mean you did not mention a name. "The American I met the other day was nice." I hope this helps. ^-^'

 

[hirashin]

Thanks for the help, OoTmaster.

Are you here in this forum to learn Japanese?

Hirashin

 

[OoTmaster]

Yes I am here to try and learn Japanese. I have been self studying and it is easier to understand when I get a native perspective. I am also here to meet Japanese people and to make friends. The only real perspective I have on what Japanese people are really like is just from anime and movies that I have watched, and from friends that I have that are native Japanese but live in the United States. So I want to try to make friends with native Japanese people that live in Japan so that I can get more perspective on what Japanese people are really like.