Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo

Ewok85 said:

POWs were treated better in America, Europe and Australia than they were by the Japanese.

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As I've read it, they were treated better (American POWs) in Germany, than in Japan.

Han Chan said:

Please try to stick to the topic. When I started this thread I wanted to highlight the fact that civilians were targeted during WWII. I feel that the experiences from that time still influences the Japanese today.

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As a matter of fact, Civilians are never targeted per-say... Infrastructure is targeted... It certainly isn't in the interest of nations at war to purposely target civilians.

I'll give you some examples, in Viet Nam, it was very difficult for the GI's to know who was an N.V.A sympathizer and who was a South Viet Nam supporter... there were causalities everywhere. If you want to know the truth, the war was conducted to undermine Communism in the south pacific, and it did that effectively (thus, I believe, the war was won... Linguist, Poli Sci writer, Noam Chomsky seems to agrees on this point, I'll add)... It was a regrettable war, with disgraced veterans returning to a country full of hippies who lionized them. It was a shame.

I do think you bring up a good point... A lot of people don't understand, know, or appreciate the damages done by incendiary bombing as compared to the two Nuclear attacks... but I don't think it's especially correct to solely blame the United States as some type of terrorist agitator.

If you'd like to get more vitriol to fuel your rage, you might look up the bombing of Dresden.

yukio_michael said:

I do think you bring up a good point... A lot of people don't understand, know, or appreciate the damages done by incendiary bombing as compared to the two Nuclear attacks... but I don't think it's especially correct to solely blame the United States as some type of terrorist agitator.

If you'd like to get more vitriol to fuel your rage, you might look up the bombing of Dresden.

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Please do not blame me for saying things I never said:

I never blamed USA for beeing terrorist. I think the targeting of civilians during war is a general problem. However, as this thread is about Japan it is natural that I primarily relate it to when the Japanese civil population was bombed during WWII.

Actually I did compare with the bombings of both Dresden and London. Please read the first post again and:

Han Chan said:

My point is: did we learn something?
I thought that targeting of civilians was now by most people seen as unacceptable. Certainly it seems like people who experiences large number of civilian casualties during WWII say: "Never again". It is not a coincidence that there are strong pasivist sentiments among germans and japanese. Now so called "collateral damage" is accepted if it not out of proprotion.
Apart from the moral issue, there are serious doubt over if the firebombings actually helped shortening the war. In London it strengthend the resolve of the population, and in germany it seems to have had similar effect. When the occupying forces were welcomed by the civilian populations in Germany and Japan it was rather, because the nightmare which their own rulers had started was over, than because people were thankful for the firebombs.

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near my home they bombed Old trafford stadium. What type of people bomb our football clubs? lol. To talk about bombing i guess we could also think about veitnam. I read about a women who was made famous in the news world a long time ago. shes a little girl running naked down the street screaming as her back is burning after a napalm attack. obviously at this time shes now a grown adult and lives in Canada with her american husband and she was talking about how she forgave the americans for what they did. I think to forgive is one of the greatest things a person can do because it is So hard to do. I believe america lost the vietnam war and the korean one as both now use communism (N korea) and as further disgrace the soldiers came home and were treated as war criminals by their own people, many of the soldiers didnt ask to be there also its no secret that JFK didnt want to go to vietnam in the first place, so its no surprise the general public didnt agree. London wise (although it wasnt the only place bombed in the UK) it was leveled by bombing but i dont hold any grudges against german people of today even though much to my annoyance the media tend to make stupid comments everytime we play germany in football. In a way although most english people dont think of it like this, Japan were also our enemy but i also dont hold any grudges against them nore italy.

(for those wondering about my view on Japan being bombed you can look back on my previous post ^-^)

Han Chan said:

I never blamed USA for beeing terrorist. I think the targeting of civilians during war is a general problem. However, as this thread is about Japan it is natural that I primarily relate it to when the Japanese civil population was bombed during WWII.

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You claimed it was "premeditated murder... There are always civilian casualties in war, but I don't think that someone says, "Oh, let's target civilians purposefully...", it's just something that is seen as an "acceptable loss".

As far as it relates to Dresden (I apologize for missing your reference), the firebombing in Japan was far worse, but I'm offering them as comparisons, the firebombing eclipses both Dresden and the Nuclear strikes.

The usual intention with these sorts of raids is to A) weaken infrastructure, and B) Demoralize the people such that they surrender... It's a strategy that is not at all unique to the United States military.

As for the Blitz, it was Hitler who issued a "a directive "... for disruptive attacks on the population and air defences of major British cities, including London, by day and night".

I think that fits more in the line of pre-meditated murder... The Japanese were also responsible for pre-meditated murder in biological testing sites, the Bataan death march, & the abominable conditions of the pow camps, which faired even worse then those in Germany.

I think it's important to make a point about the devastation of the attack, but it's hard to understand the moralistic principals when you are speaking of a global conflict the likes of World War II.

When reflecting on the campaign after the war, some expressed doubts about the morality of the firebombing. Curtis LeMay later said: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal."[5] He felt, however, that his bombings were saving lives by encouraging Japan to surrender earlier.

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(from wiki)

Those who are tried for war crimes are the ones who lose the war. I saw a bumper sticker that said "War is not the Answer"... and I asked myself, "What was the Answer to the invasion of Poland, the occupation of France, and the attempt to create a Fascist hegemony??"... As our world grows older, our wars change, we have different moral reactions to them, and if you don't think that war changes people... for example the "war" in Iraq, people return very saddened... I've spoken to such people.

We're talking about something that happened 50 years ago... we can say all we want that it was "premeditated murder"... but in the end, it's simply war, which is in itself an awful awful thing that exposes the very worst aspects of the human condition.

Pre-WW2, German Pows and Rissian POWs in Japan, it is very interesting.
Heaven pOWS in Japan is very famouse

Btw
Japanese Gobou,burdock
many Japanese guard were Excuted because They only insisted " we were made to eat the root Of Tree at WW2

yukio_michael said:

"What was the Answer to the invasion of Poland, the occupation of France, and the attempt to create a Fascist hegemony??"... As our world grows older, our wars change, we have different moral reactions to them, and if you don't think that war changes people... for example the "war" in Iraq, people return very saddened... I've spoken to such people.

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This is a point that is interesting. Many say that war isn't the answer, and use Ghandi as an example of non-violent resistance. BUT, that was a completely different scenario, in the case of Japan and Germany both (did) and would have killed millions disregardful of whether they resisted or gave passive resistance.

in the case of Japan and Germany both (did) and would have killed millions disregardful of whether they resisted or gave passive resistance.

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so did USA
however Japan never did racial cleansing that had noting to do with WAR.

ameican did in Vietnam ,Iraq and still goes on

caster51 said:

so did USA
however Japan never did racial cleansing that had noting to do with WAR.

ameican did in Vietnam ,Iraq and still goes on

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Wait what? Japan killed hundreds if not thousands of Koreans and Chinese in experimental biological labs... during the war they had little regard for the POWs many of whom died in captivity, or as I mentioned in the march... they were very brutal fighters.

Are you saying that the United States is doing ethnic-cleansing in Iraq? Are you saying that they did this in Viet Nam (which if you understand that conflict makes absolutely no sense in the slightest---) It's like saying that in order to stop the spread of communism (or the influence of communism more correctly), we should wipe out the race of the Vietnamese.

The conflict in Iraq is something I won't get into... I think that on the abstract, removing Sadam from power was a good thing, him and his sons, and the Baath party were a terrible group of people... But there are terrible groups of people all over the world doing similar things (Charles Taylor anyone?)... it's just that the war on so many levels was done so poorly, and so unpreparedly, and so misleadingly... it's about 10 different threads to discuss the why's and what's of that conflict.

Also, it's Viet Nam, (not to nit pick), the phrase Viet Cong, comes from Viet Nam Cong San, which means Vietnamese Communist.

if not thousands of Koreans and Chinese in experimental biological labs... during the war they had little regard for the POWs many of whom died in captivity, or as I mentioned in the march... they were very brutal fighters.

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those POws were in Jungle without food or sruunding by enemy.
it was miracle there were POws there espcialy south Asia
can USA make a such old POWs in Bagdad or military encampment of enemy.

Are you saying that the United States is doing ethnic-cleansing in Iraq? Are you saying that they did this in Viet Nam (which if you understand that conflict makes absolutely no sense in the slightest---) It's like saying that in order to stop the spread of communism (or the influence of communism more correctly), we should wipe out the race of the Vietnamese.

The conflict in Iraq is something I won't get into... I think that on the abstract, removing Sadam from power was a good thing, him and his sons, and the Baath party were a terrible group of people... But there are terrible groups of people all over the world doing similar things (Charles Taylor anyone?)... it's just that the war on so many levels was done so poorly, and so unpreparedly, and so misleadingly... it's about 10 different threads to discuss the why's and what's of that conflict.

Also, it's Viet Nam, (not to nit pick), the phrase Viet Cong, comes from Viet Nam Cong San, which means Vietnamese Communist.

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Yes there are many reason ..............

so was Japan

The next post that is not about the bombing of inocent people on Japanese soil (main topic, read post 1) will be deleted because it posts about Iraq, and Vietnam got nothing to do with this topic.

Exhibition of paintings on 1945 Tokyo air raids

For those who want to know more about the tragegy in Tokyo, March 10, 1945:

NHK:

Exhibition of paintings on 1945 Tokyo air raids

An exhibition of paintings that show the devastation of the Great Tokyo Air Raids is attracting visitors on Tuesday, the day before the 62nd anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War Two.

The show at a community museum in Tokyo's Sumida Ward features artworks painted by 23 survivors of the US attacks that claimed about 100,000 lives on March 10, about 5 months before the end of the war.

A painting by Mr Hiroshi Ono shows a vast area of downtown Tokyo engulfed by fire after the US B-29 bomber raids.

Another work by Mr Hiroshi Tsuchida depicts streets filled with the bodies of people who died as they fled toward the river.

An official of the museum said he hopes that through the paintings, visitors will come to know the trauma, anger and sorrow the survivors suffered.

Let me add one element, and that is of the emotional health of the veterans returning from war.

I videotaped many American veterans in their old age. Most I could not get a single bit of information about what they did, but the magic question which opened them up was..."Tell me about the buddy who never came back."

And they would open up. And they would start sentences, and never finish them. Or they even broke down in tears. In their old age, they could no longer carry the pain and the suffering which they endured, and which they inflicted.

Yes, almost to the man, they ALL felt remorse for the killing they had been a part of. Now, in the case of veterans who were POWs, no, that was a different story, almost to the man. In one exception, an American guard at a German-POW camp in Arizona did mention one friendship he struck up with a German POW, who, on the date of their leaving the United States for home after the war, asked the guard to contact his family, "just in case". The ship that was to take them "home" was a Russian ship, and they were headed for Vladivostok. History tells us these same prisoners were sent to the coal mines of Siberia, and most, if not all never made it home. Oh, the American guard never did contact the family, probably out of fear for what he knew would happen to these German POWs in the hands of the Russian "allies". But he too felt regret for those "enemies".

At the end of the day, America did horrible things in the war, which have never been publicized, and horrible things were done against us. Civilians were targeted, like all wars since, as a method of "revenge" and terror, let's be frank. Fire bombing Tokyo was an abomination against all of humanity, as is most civilian-related deaths, in all wars and conflicts.

Why I am a peacenik!!!

Phan Thị Kim Phúc, famous VietNam photograph...
Phan Thi Kim Phuc - Wikipedia

This is pretty dumb. Japan starts the war, kill foreign civilians, loses, than sues others for killing them back.

talk about robber criticizing the police for talking away his possessions.

every summer, i had to watch those horrible war movies at school and write essays praising world peace. i've seen too many anime of tokyo bombing, but somehow i never learnt to criticise America.

a typical case of post-war education.

Complete and utter de-tachment...

To all the readers here...

Two or three days ago, Karl Rove lost his job at the White House. Apparently, it was a near-teary-eyed event. How sad. (!?!)

This crew arguably caused the death of 500,000 Iraqis, it is beyond counting.

So just as you will never see a SINGLE mention of 100,000 civilians killed in a firebombing of Tokyo, in any American history book (I believe), you have the identical total de-tachment of mention in most American news reports of the half-million Iraqi and Afghani dead civilians.

How sad, Karl Rove lost his job. So What!!!??? This was one of the guys who architected the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, and it is not even mentioned. It was not part of his public personna! We distance ourselves from the human catastrophe that this man created.

What the heck is wrong with ME for the REVULSION I feel for the firebombing of Tokyo, and the half million Iraqi civilians... and the lack of meaningful dialogue about the consequences, and the lack of holding monsters like him accountable?!?

We act like these things never happened, like these humans never existed. Then we worry about our favorite football or baseball team!

I don't feel revulsion, I feel free...and American...not German or Japanese....