Random Grammar

Trin · 1 Oct 2015

こんばんは、皆さん。元気ですか。今日の仕事は難しくなかった。What is the difference in ように、で、のに、ため? They all state a purpose for a action of the reason why something is done, but I am confused on the exact differences they all imply. Thank you all who help.

Toritoribe · 1 Oct 2015

Don't you have any textbook?

Trin · 2 Oct 2015

I do, but I am getting a bit confused on the nuance of the particles. I will post more later, I have to go to work in a while. Sorry about that. I wrote that just before bed and I was tired and just wanted to get something on the forum. I will make sure to properly explain my posts in the future. ごめん。
じゃ、また。

Mike Cash · 2 Oct 2015

Do you have a textbook...or are you teaching yourself from reference books?

mdchachi · 2 Oct 2015

If you haven't seen it already you'd probably enjoy this guy's blog:
Self Taught Japanese | Articles on learning Japanese, culture, and media reviews (manga, novels, etc.)
He writes entries about a lot of the kinds of things you ask about. Maybe not this one in particular though.

WonkoTheSane · 2 Oct 2015

Trin said:
こんばんは、皆さん。元気ですか。今日の仕事は難しくなかった。What is the difference in ように、で、のに、ため? They all state a purpose for a action of the reason why something is done, but I am confused on the exact differences they all imply. Thank you all who help.

All four are referenced in A Dictionary Of Basic Japanese Grammar (Amazon link) which I bought based on recommendations here. Probably only really useful if you have either a good textbook or are in some sort of organized lessons.

I mention it because what you're asking is very complicated, a fact I only realized after reading various entries in that book. It's not as simple as のに means X and で means Y because there can be multiple meanings for each and they can be significantly different for each usage and slightly different from the other particle (and vice versa). In that book, で alone is described over seven pages of small font text.

Sometimes, we as learners, don't realize the extent of what we're asking of other people.

Kraise · 3 Oct 2015

If you ever manage to return to this thread, remember to bring your own thoughts, opinions, examples on these topics too.
Dont ask for a comprehensive answer only, make sure to show everybody that you've been actively working on the matter.

Trin · 3 Oct 2015

Sorry I have been away. I did not get home to late. I use a site called JapanesePod101.com to do most of my studying and I have loads of reference books. I do not have a tutor so I guess I am mostly self taught.
So here is what I think. のに is used to show the purpose for or condition for why you something is done. ため can be used like のに except it implies more of a process and ように is used more to show the motive or purpose for the action. で just seems to be used to show a reason for a event.

日本語をちゃんと勉強するのにこのforumが要る。 To study Japanese properly I need this forum.
雨で渋滞がある。Because of rain this is a traffic jam.
日本の音楽に聞くように日本語の言葉に聞くこと練習する。I listen to Japanese music to practice listening to Japanese words.
日本語で話すことができるため毎日勉強する。I study Japanese everyday so I can speak Japanese.

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。

Toritoribe · 3 Oct 2015

Trin said:
日本語をちゃんと勉強するのにこのforumが要る。 To study Japanese properly I need this forum.

日本語をちゃんと勉強するのにこのフォーラムが要る/必要だ。
のに indicates the purpose. You need this forum in order to study Japanese properly.

Trin said:
雨で渋滞がある。Because of rain this is a traffic jam.

雨で渋滞している。
で indeed indicates cause/reason, but this is just a case particle, not conjunctive particle. Note that 雨 is a noun.

Trin said:
日本の音楽に聞くように日本語の言葉に聞くこと練習する。I listen to Japanese music to practice listening to Japanese words.

日本語の単語を聞き取る練習をするために、日本の音楽を聴いている。
ために is also for purpose. Note that "I listen to Japanese music" is the main clause and "to practice listening to Japanese words" is the purpose in your English sentence.

See the difference.
日本の音楽を聴いていたから、日本語の単語を聞き取れる。
I can catch Japanese words because I listened to Japanese music.
日本の音楽を聴いていた "I listened to Japanese music" is the cause/reason of 日本語の単語を聞き取れる "I can catch Japanese words". In this case, から can be replaced with ので, ため（に） or おかげで.

Trin said:
日本語で話すことができるため毎日勉強する。I study Japanese everyday so I can speak Japanese.

日本語で話すことができるように毎日勉強する。
Ditto. ように is for purpose.

Trin · 3 Oct 2015

ありがとうございました。あなたのお礼から僕はうれしい。

Toritoribe · 3 Oct 2015

Trin said:
あなたのお礼から僕はうれしい。

It doesn't make sense, I'm afraid...

By the way, are you really satisfied with my reply above? I didn't give any explanation about the difference among から, ので, ため（に） and て, which is your initial question. Or, this is not-so-serious question in the first place?

Trin · 4 Oct 2015

I just figured that since you did not explain the differences that my assumptions where correct. Since I seem to to have the use of the particles more less down I would appreciate it if you did explain the nuances of them for me.

I just want to say thank you, Toritoribe, for helping me out so much. I greatly appreciate your help.

Toritoribe · 4 Oct 2015

Well, there are indeed many "rules" regarding the usage of those conjunctive particles, e.g., のに is hardly used when the main clause is a strong mood such like order, invitation or determination, ため（に） is only used for a fixed fact (an event that already happened or that will no doubt happen), but it's not that simple something like から is for this case, and て is for that case, as already pointed out. Think about if you are asked by an English learner about the difference between 'because', 'since' and 'so' in English. How do you explain "'since' means 'because' in these cases, whereas it's 'from' in these cases" or "'while' means 'during' in these cases, and it's an adversative conjunction in these cases". Your request equals to ask us for writing an entire chapter of a grammar textbook (and that's exactly why I asked if you have a textbook).

Trin · 4 Oct 2015

Wow. Sorry about that. I think using a reference book and not sticking to my online program is starting to back fire. I wanted to learn the grammar as fast as I can, but it seems that trying to force it is not working. I am just going to stick to my online program and steadily move forward with the grammar program they have and not try to learn grammar too fast. I am sorry for any trouble I may have caused. I will stick to my online program. Thank you all for helping me so much. :notworthy:

Mike Cash · 4 Oct 2015

There's a big difference between using a textbook and using reference books. The beginning learner really needs a textbook and very little or no need whatsoever for a reference book. Complete at least the beginner's level textbooks of a good series (such as Genki I & II) to give yourself the basic foundation to be able to get some benefit from material in reference books. Reference books are an adjunct to learning from textbooks, not a substitute. Over the years the people I have observed with the most problems have been those who have tried teaching themselves from reference books and/or some crap they found for free on the internet. The internet has greatly increased the number of people who try teaching themselves Japanese and has revolutionized the availability and amount of materials for teaching one's self. What it has not done in most cases, though, is to increase the quality of learning or degree of proficient attained. Oddly enough, people seem to have done better back in the bad 'ol days of books, paper, and pencil.

Random Grammar

Trin

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Trin

Kouhai

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

mdchachi

Moderator

WonkoTheSane

先輩

Kraise

先輩

Trin

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Trin

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Trin

Kouhai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Trin

Kouhai

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Similar threads