Questions

Jericho Desu · 27 Oct 2010

Hey guys, I've got a bunch of questions to ask so I decided to make this thread, I hope some of you can help me out. I'm just starting off with a couple.

1: I read that one of the usages if なり is similar to とたん in the sense of something happening right after something else. For example:
家へ帰るなり、すぐに出かけた

There are supposedly two differences one being the tenses of the verb and the other I read is that なり is always used for something that is unexpected. However in one of my grammatical books it doesn't mention the second difference and has sentences like:
彼は、宿題を済ませるなり遊びに行ってしまった。

Which I don't see as having that nuance, so is that second difference true or not? Or is it just a nuance that doesn't necessarily have to be there depending on the context?

2: 失敗する可能性があるとすれば、止めましょう
失敗する可能性があれば、止めましょう
How is the meaning and/or nuance changed? Because as far as I can tell they are both just hypothesizing something.

Toritoribe · 27 Oct 2010

Jericho Desu said:
Hey guys, I've got a bunch of questions to ask so I decided to make this thread, I hope some of you can help me out. I'm just starting off with a couple.
1: I read that one of the usages if なり is similar to とたん in the sense of something happening right after something else. For example:
家へ帰るなり、すぐに出かけた
There are supposedly two differences one being the tenses of the verb and the other I read is that なり is always used for something that is unexpected. However in one of my grammatical books it doesn't mention the second difference and has sentences like:
彼は、宿題を済ませるなり遊びに行ってしまった。
Which I don't see as having that nuance, so is that second difference true or not? Or is it just a nuance that doesn't necessarily have to be there depending on the context?

Hmm, it seems to me that the nuance is from the context.
～するなり is hard to be used for non-volitional verbs unlike ～した途端, ～するとすぐ, ～するやいなや. I think this is more important difference.

Jericho Desu said:
2: 失敗する可能性があるとすれば、止めましょう
失敗する可能性があれば、止めましょう
How is the meaning and/or nuance changed? Because as far as I can tell they are both just hypothesizing something.

あれば is just a conditional; "if/when~". あるとすれば emphasizes the meaning, something like "it might be rare, but if~".

Jericho Desu · 4 Nov 2010

Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Elizabeth · 4 Nov 2010

Jericho Desu said:
Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Sorry I don't have a chance to answer now, but just to clarify やっぱ is just a silly colloquial way of saying やっぱり, right ? And しような could be しようね...

Jericho Desu · 5 Nov 2010

Elizabeth said:
Sorry I don't have a chance to answer now, but just to clarify やっぱ is just a silly colloquial way of saying やっぱり, right ? And しような could be しようね..

My feeling is that the sentence is something the speaker is thinking/saying to themselves or to someone really close like a family member or friend. I also think Kansai too but not necessarily so.

Glenn · 5 Nov 2010

It's almost certainly something the speaker is saying to themselves. That type of language is used all over, though. It's not a Kansai thing. Sorry, can't offer much insight into としても vs. にしても, but I get the feeling they're pretty much interchangeable.

Jericho Desu · 5 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
t's almost certainly something the speaker is saying to themselves. That type of language is used all over, though. It's not a Kansai thing. Sorry, can't offer much insight into としても vs. にしても, but I get the feeling they're pretty much interchangeable.

Do you think it could be something like how the に in に比べて emphasizes the word before more than と比べて? Like emphasizing the buying of the car?

Toritoribe · 5 Nov 2010

しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)

にしても can be used for a fact in the past. In that case, it often has negative connotation. See the example below.

新車を買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに。

The second or third person already bought a new car, and the speaker isn't pleased about it; something like 新車を買わないほうがよかったと思うけど、買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに. としても is rarely used for this case.

Jericho Desu · 5 Nov 2010

Your the man Toritoribe, thanks alot

Glenn · 5 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)

Really? You can't just be saying "if I were to get a new car, I'd go with a black one again" to yourself with しような in this instance?

undrentide · 5 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
Really? You can't just be saying "if I were to get a new car, I'd go with a black one again" to yourself with しような in this instance?

な in しような is asking for another for assertion, agreement, like "shall we?/shan't we?"
It's a bit strange when speaking to oneself...

Without な, it's quite normal.

Toritoribe · 5 Nov 2010

Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

Elizabeth · 5 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

And するかな in contrast to しようかな I suppose would be speaking in the third person ?

I'm still a bit confused about the example, though. としても I think is basically analogous to (たとえ) でも or であっても as it indicates (to me) the speaker's hesitation or reluctance to engage in an action - in this case to buy the car. This is a major way that is different from とすれば or としたら.

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following?

Yeah, not necessarily emphasizing - like けど or other fillers, it simply doesn't have much meaning at all on its own. You can think of examples in English as well - "(But) even so" "in any case" "nevertheless" etc.

Elizabeth · 5 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)
にしても can be used for a fact in the past. In that case, it often has negative connotation. See the example below.
新車を買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに。
The second or third person already bought a new car, and the speaker isn't pleased about it; something like 新車を買わないほうがよかったと思うけど、買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに. としても is rarely used for this case.

I thought the basic function of にしても was as to convey the sense of an instructive, "even if" ... still "should"/must/command-type statement to a second or third party. It doesn't have to be in the past, though...:?

Glenn · 5 Nov 2010

undrentide said:
窶
な in しような is asking for another for assertion, agreement, like "shall we?/shan't we?"
It's a bit strange when speaking to oneself...

Without な, it's quite normal.

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

This is mind-blowing. First, I don't understand why... wait, are they both buying the car? That seems strange. It looks like the person is saying just that if they were to get a car now, it'd be a black one. So here's what I don't get: what are they asking for agreement about? It looks for all the world like it's just the speaker's thoughts about buying a car if they were to do so. Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

Elizabeth · 5 Nov 2010

Glenn said:
Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

I think when you are wondering aloud to yourself, kane/kai is usually replaced with kana...

Toritoribe · 6 Nov 2010

Elizabeth said:
I'm still a bit confused about the example, though. としても I think is basically analogous to (たとえ) でも or であっても as it indicates (to me) the speaker's hesitation or reluctance to engage in an action - in this case to buy the car. This is a major way that is different from とすれば or としたら.

Yeah, that nuance is from ても, so 買うとしても, 買うにしても, 買っても all can have that connotation.
e.g.
新車は、買っても来年だね。＝新車は、買うとしても/買うにしても来年だね。

Glenn said:
This is mind-blowing. First, I don't understand why... wait, are they both buying the car? That seems strange. It looks like the person is saying just that if they were to get a car now, it'd be a black one. So here's what I don't get: what are they asking for agreement about? It looks for all the world like it's just the speaker's thoughts about buying a car if they were to do so.

It's a conversation in a family, for instance, from husband to wife. Does this make sense?;-)

Glenn said:
Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

今度の試合、絶対勝とうな。(manly version of 勝とうね）

an example of an external comment-type statement seeking agreement without a pause

Elizabeth · 6 Nov 2010

Jericho Desu said:
Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

I also asked a friend in Japan just out of curiosity, and here is his response (from work, so excuse the formality). ;-)

大きな違いがあるとは思えませんが、1.より2.の方が新車を
買う可能性が高いような感じがします。
人によっては逆に感じるかも知れません。

Glenn · 6 Nov 2010

Toritoribe said:
It's a conversation in a family, for instance, from husband to wife. Does this make sense?;-)

Yeah, that makes more sense. I guess it's just that when I see しよう on its own like in the first instance, I assumed it was the speaker just talking about themselves.

Jericho Desu · 6 Nov 2010

Elizabeth said:
I also asked a friend in Japan just out of curiosity, and here is his response (from work, so excuse the formality). ;-)

大きな違いがあるとは思えませんが、1.より2.の方が新車を
買う可能性が高いような感じがします。
人によっては逆に感じるかも知れません。
ｱﾂ。

Interesting, thank you Elizabeth

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