Question for fluent speakers

For those gaijins in Japan who are fluent or near fluent in Japanese...
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What has been the most important factor in your succes in learning the language? Did you have real good teachers? Did you pour over textbooks 8 hours a day for years? Did you learn mostly by just getting out there and using it a lot, or perhaps watching a lot of TV? Do you just have a natural ability for picking up languages, or for memorizing things? Is your Japanese spouse/girlfriend, etc. your main source of learning or motivation?
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I ask because I feel like my ability in Japanese is way behind for the 6+ years I've been in Japan. I can usually sputter out simple sentences, but I'm nowhere near fluent. I go to classes but they're mostly just grammar lessons out of a textbook, which isn't proving very practical. I can do the book exercises pretty well.
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I figure the best way to learn anything is by doing it a lot, so even though I'm not a big socializer type, I try to get out and practice it. It's just awkward when I have to make people speak slowly and repeat things constantly, or even wait while I look up a word in my dictionary.
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So I'm in search of advice from the experts out there.

Hey Guy Jean and welcome to Jref.

Six years in country and you still cannot speak fluently? WOW! Do you live on a military base or something? Do you work for a foreign company or an Embassy or something like that? Are you married to a Japanese and speak only English with her or are you married to someone from your own country? If so then that's the problem right there.

If not, and you are living in a Japanese apartment/house and working, it sounds like you are spending most of your time hanging out with other foreigners and speaking mostly English or whatever your native language is. You will never learn Japanese that way as your friends and lifestyle provide a crutch for you to avoid learning the language.

Others may have different advice, but this is how I did it. I took about six months of basic Japanese and did the rest on my own. I lived in a Japanese apartment as a Japanese would and had maybe one or two foreign friends. I made it a point to visit Japanese bars/snacks, restaurants, etc in the neighborhood and use what I had learned no matter how basic. All my Japanese friends, both male and female, did not speak English well, so I was forced to speak with them in their language and they were patient and helpful to me.

When I went out, I did not use a dictionary or book when going about my daily routines (too much trouble), but just did as best as I could from memory. It's amazing how, after learning a new word or phrase from a book or whatever, that whenever you remember to use it in normal conversation you will never forget it again.

As I had a basic understanding of the language, I was not afraid to use it with the Japanese as, not only were they impressed, they were very patient and helpful and I learned much more than I could ever learn from a book or formal lessons. My ability increased on a daily basis until after about a year (or a little more) I was fairly fluent in the language. After about 3 years I could speak on any subject with anyone quite fluently.

When watching TV, or listening to the radio, or trying to read signs or the newspaper, or out with Japanese friends, when I came upon a word or phrase I did not understand, I made note of it, studied it, and used it as soon as I could. Then it became a permanent fixture of my language ability.

You have to live as a Japanese and not a foreigner for your ability to improve. You must immerse yourself in the culture completely and not rely on books and such when out in public. The Japanese, as you probably know already, are very patient and accomodating to foreigners, especially when they are making the attempt to speak.

Don't worry though, you are not alone. I knew quite a few foreigners who lived in Japan more than 5 years and could not even hold the simplest conversation in Japanese because they lived as they would in their own country, spoke their own language 90% of the time, and had very few Japanese friends (which is quite easy to do in Japan). However, you can still learn fairly quickly by living there. It's not too late. Just try avoiding using your own language as much as possible and spek Japanese as much as possible without the aid of a book and such when out in public. Good Luck!

Guy Gene said:

For those gaijins in Japan who are fluent or near fluent in Japanese...
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What has been the most important factor in your succes in learning the language?

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Making feeding, clothing, and sheltering my family dependent upon it. It's a very motivating factor.

I ask because I feel like my ability in Japanese is way behind for the 6+ years I've been in Japan. I can usually sputter out simple sentences, but I'm nowhere near fluent. I go to classes but they're mostly just grammar lessons out of a textbook, which isn't proving very practical. I can do the book exercises pretty well.

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You're in a situation where it would be nice if you function in Japanese, but nothing is riding on it. It's just an academic exercise. Contrary to popular opinion, merely being in Japan usually isn't enough to do the trick.

I figure the best way to learn anything is by doing it a lot, so even though I'm not a big socializer type, I try to get out and practice it. It's just awkward when I have to make people speak slowly and repeat things constantly, or even wait while I look up a word in my dictionary.

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First, quit toting a dictionary around with you. You can never expect to walk upright if you're in the habit of constantly leaning on a crutch. I'll be glad to elaborate on that later, if need be. Have to hurry along to work now.

Guy,

(1) You have to get out and use the language. When I was living in Japan, I would leave my job at an English school on a Friday, and not speak any English until I went back to work on Monaday. Just say no -- to speaking English for as long as you can.

(2) When you make a mistake, you can usually feel it right away. Find a bilingual person who can tell if you a sample sentence is correct or not. You would be surprised how many people are willing to correct your Japanese.

You said,

"I can usually sputter out simple sentences, but I'm nowhere near fluent."

--> This means you need to work at longer sentences and more complex sentences. Right now, I want you to give me a long sentence or complex sentence in English that you cannot say in Japanese.

"I go to classes but they're mostly just grammar lessons out of a textbook...."

--> Talking with real humans out in the real world is much better.

"I figure the best way to learn anything is by doing it a lot, so even though I'm not a big socializer type, I try to get out and practice it."

--> When I lived in Japan, I picked one small mom-and-pop restaurant, and went there regularly. (Mom-and-pop restaurants are great because the owners ususally do NOT speak English, so you cannot cheat.) Get to know all about their kids, their dog, all that stuff. They love talking to gaijin in Japanese. This kind of practice in the best there is, and it only costs you the price of a bowl of ramen.

Mike Cash said:

Making feeding, clothing, and sheltering my family dependent upon it. It's a very motivating factor.

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Mike, would you say that for foreigners for whom Japanese is not their native language, or at the very least I'm saying, they did not grow up in a household where Japanese was spoken, there is no fluency, only 'proficiency'...? I think I recall you saying this.

Since it seems more that the the point of this thread is getting tips on improving one's Japanese instead of the definition of fluency, making the "fluency vs. proficiency" argument here would be like rehashing the old thread. I think Mike took the question as such, and simply responded with his motivations and advice on improving the OP's language skills. I make no claims to fluency/advanced proficiency, but I do feel fairly comfortable in the language nowadays.

I think the best advice that I've seen thus far is that if you are taking classes (or even if you aren't), to actually use what you learn in conversation. If you don't use it, you really will lose it.

Also, learn how to explain things and how to ask for explanations, then work on your listening skills so you can understand what's being said to you. This way, you avoid having to use your dictionary in exchange for prolonging your conversation (and in turn, your speaking and listening practice). I have an electronic dictionary that I almost never use anymore, because it's far more convenient to ask someone "what does that word mean?" and listening to them explain it in Japanese, instead of interrupting the conversation to look for a translation.

Mike Cash said:

First, quit toting a goddamned dictionary around with you. You can never expect to walk upright if you're in the habit of constantly leaning on a crutch.

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This is very good advice.
To the OP: have you ever read a book in Japanese? I'm going to assume that you haven't, or at least haven't read many. In my opinion, reading profusely is the most expedient route to language proficiency (though reading alone will not make you proficient). You need to put down those textbooks and start observing real Japanese. You can't expect to easily catch a word or sentence pattern aurally if it's something you've never encountered. Reading allows you to take in language at your own pace, repeating bits where necessary. Audio input doesn't work like that. And you can't expect to be able to produce complex sentences if you can barely understand them. Familiarity with language comes from not seeing words and sentence patterns one time in one place, but from seeing them over and over again in all kinds of arrangements.

A person who memorizes a cookbook from front to back is not a good cook if they've never touched a frying pan, and a person who takes in the entire contents of a textbook will not be able to speak Japanese if they don't go out and experience the real thing, and as I said earlier, reading is the easiest way to familiarize yourself with the language.

Please read the following two web pages. I would be happy to recommend some books for you if you like.

(a) Never spend money and time listening to teachers talking about words. Instead, spend that time reading and listening and finding out directly what words mean and how they are used.

(b) Never waste money on books about vocabulary. Instead, again, read and listen and find out directly what words mean and how they are used.

(c) Never make lists of one-word equivalents. (If you need such a list for the most basic words, try to find one that has been made by a linguist who has studied the problem carefully.)

(d) Never translate into your own language "to be sure you really understand". If you don't already understand you cannot translate.

(e)Never think that a word means the same as another word.

(f)Never believe that a definition tells you what a word really means.

(g)Never use a dictionary more than you absolutely have to and "absolutely having to" is much less often than you think.

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Guy,

I have one more idea. In my opinion, the hardest thing to do in Japanese is to explain how to do something. I remember trying to explain how to play a board game called Risk (a fun game, by the way.) Boy, that was tough! Is your Japanese good enough to try to explain how to do something?

I have one word: practice.

Practice was the key to my getting to the point that I'm at now. You need to practice as much as possible. This encompasses all aspects of language usage: reading, writing, speaking, listening.

And don't be easy on yourself. Make a decision to limit the amount of English in your daily life and stick to it. When I was actively learning the language, I would limit myself to something like one English movie every couple of weeks, and that was about it.

Though I haven't lived in Japan, I agree with what Pachipro, Buntaro and Mikawa Ossan said. Practicing a language by talking regularly in that language with native speakers will help you better remember it. When I was taking Japanese classes, I would often speak completely in Japanese with a Japanese woman who was an acquaintance of my former neighbor's. It helped improve doinkies' pronunciation, and I learned a lot of new vocabulary as well.

So yes, definitely practice as much as possible and as much as you can, and don't rely so much on English either...

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

First of all, as was pointed out, I should have used the word "proficient", not "fluent". Forget I said "fluent". I don't care if I'm never fluent in Japanese. I just want to be comfortable and competent.

Mike Cash, you're right that my life isn't exactly dependent on Japanese proficiency, so naturally, my motivation isn't what it is for you and others. And by the way, I don't tote my dictionary around everywhere. There have been times when I did have it and it was necessary. The point is that, dictionary or not, conversations for me are still usually too slow and awkward.
JimmySeal wrote...

To the OP: have you ever read a book in Japanese? I'm going to assume that you haven't, or at least haven't read many...You need to put down those textbooks and start observing real Japanese.

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Well, if you mean major works like novels, no. I have read short stories, and even some manga, which are supposed to be good examples of colloquial Japanese (and I have put down the textbooks quite a while back, other than the class once a week.) Actually, my reading and writing skills are quite ahead of my conversational skills. What I guess you're saying though is to not just read, but read enough so it gets in my head and is recognizable when I hear it later. Good point. Thanks for the links, too. Those are great.
Buntaro wrote...

In my opinion, the hardest thing to do in Japanese is to explain how to do something. I remember trying to explain how to play a board game called Risk (a fun game, by the way.) Boy, that was tough! Is your Japanese good enough to try to explain how to do something?

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It depends. I can give decent street directions, I think. I once taught a girl how to make Mexican quesadillas step by step. I did okay despite my clumsy sentences. Another time I tried to teach someone how to do those number puzzles ("kakuro"?), and couldn't seem to get anywhere.

Anyway, everyone agrees that the main thing is to just get out there and use it, so I guess I'm on the right track. I just need to multiply my efforts by about 10 or 20.

I'd still be interested to hear of any specific learning methods that may have been a big help. For example, someone was telling me recently he'd record a whole TV or radio talk program on a particular subject, and listen to it over and over constantly, looking up every word he didn't know and practically memorizing each sentence. That kind of thing.

Thanks again, everyone. 頑張ります!

"I'd still be interested to hear of any specific learning methods that may have been a big help."

--> Write out specific sentences that you have butchered, and get them corrected. For example, I wrote a book in Japanese (I really did). When I first started, I had to write out each individual sentence in Japanese, no matter how butchered they came out. I then had my proof-reader re-form the sentences into something reasonable. This was a very painful process.

By the time I finished writing the book, my ability to write much-less-butchered sentences had increased dramatically. Sure, the need to get each sentence proof-read still existed, but the amount of re-write decreased dramatically.

By the way, the above idea deals only with writing and grammar. Language aquisition deals with four main skills.

speaking
listening
reading
writing

To this I would add

grammar
Kanji

Which one(s) is most important to you right now?

For example, someone was telling me recently he'd record a whole TV or radio talk program on a particular subject, and listen to it over and over constantly, looking up every word he didn't know and practically memorizing each sentence.

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That reminded me of my two kids, who memorized virtually the entire English script for "The Little Mermaid" (a video we bought in the US) and play-acted the story (the songs, too!) for us, when the vocabulary used was beyond their level of English competence. They figured out what phrases meant what in the dialogue, and vocabulary expanded dramatically.

Of course, they were little kids then, so it may not apply to adults, who don't have the enthusiasm of children over stories and can't handle rote memory as they do.
But just my two yen on foreign language learning!

Practice is important, but getting someone to give you pointers is also equally as important. Japanese natives are really shy at expressing their opinion and unless you are persistent all you will get is "nihongo ojouzu desu ne."

You will have to establish your goal in making your learning plans. Do you plan to become a Japanese literature expert or do you want to simply be one of the gangs. You see there are foreign experts on Japanese who can carry out fantastic written analysis of classical Japanese and yet struggle in giving simple lectures in Japanese.

If you really want to standout among the gaijins, you will need to learn all the giongo and gitaigo that most Japanese native speakers are expected to know. They can be a pain to learn if you are not fond of cramming vocab.

Finally don't try to push the bar too high for yourself when learning. You ain't gonna make perfectly long sentences when you say something for the first time. It's much easier to explain things in short sentences. Even natives do that most of the time, so don't think your Japanese is bad simply because you cannot produce long sentences that you otherwise would only see in newspapers.

I've been living in Japan (in total) for about 15 months now. I still have a long way to go before I feel "comfortable," but I think I can articulate most ideas or concepts if the listener is patient enough with me.

One thing I've found helpful recently is reading my friends' blogs on mixi.jp. A lot of Japanese people are members and update their blogs quite often, which is good experience for me not only to practice my reading and grammar, but also follow their lives. If you're not a member, you might want to look into that.

One thing I found difficult as an English speaker beginning Japanese is that everyone else in this country (and the world) is trying to learn English. Many Japanese, when they first met me, seemed more interested in my English than my character. You need to be careful to avoid opportunists (as I call them) who want to use you merely for English practice. I still run across several, even though I can speak Japanese much better than their English.

Make sure you have Japanese friends who (even if they can speak English) are willing to listen to your Japanese and work with you to slowly improve. Like others have said, nothing beats straight forward back and forth conversation in Japanese.

Basuotoko,
I agree. People constantly using English with me is a big hindrance. Even my Japanese "teacher" will just blurt out in English anything I don't seem to understand rather than try to teach me what she said in Japanese. Incidentally, tomorrow is my last day of that class. It has been a waste of my time.

There have been times when talking with strangers that I pretended not to understand English. If they ask where I'm from, I say I'm Russian.

nhk9,
I like learning giongo and gitaigo. They're easier to memorize than regular vocabulary words.

Thanks again, everyone.

well other den learning it thru audio lessons, i watch anime , replay certain words etc. i also try to write down how it sounds in English

but my japanese is bad tho, just starting to learn lol

gud luck Guy Gene

At this point, I would strongly recommend learning the Japanese set of vowels and consonants, and writing all of your new vocabulary words in hiragana or katakana. Writing Japanese words with English pronunciations means that you are still thinking in English, and also will likely ensure that you'll have a pronounced accent when you speak.

Sorry, that was directed more at dan_j than the OP...

nice gaijin said:

At this point, I would strongly recommend learning the Japanese set of vowels and consonants, and writing all of your new vocabulary words in hiragana or katakana. Writing Japanese words with English pronunciations means that you are still thinking in English, and also will likely ensure that you'll have a pronounced accent when you speak.

Sorry, that was directed more at dan_j than the OP...

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thanks for that nice gaijin

as stated in the above posts i guess the best way is to only think and speak in japanese for as long as you can with out using any english